Disappointed in my tone

[Sparky Mark]

I would go back to using your original bass guitar that worked well in that venue previously. Sometimes a particular combination just works better in certain circumstances.
Unless the singers have lots of low end EQ'd or your bass is straying into the vocalists frequency range you really shouldn't be fighting tonally.

 

[Wasnex]

It's complex problem, so it's pretty much impossible to make an accurate assessment without actually being in the room.

Worship halls tend to be big boomy spaces. This makes it very difficult to deliver a good bass sound and it also make it difficult for the bassist to hear. Since the bass builds up and sounds bad, people tend perceive it as too loud.


My approach: I elevate my amp and tilt it back to aim at my head. This reduces coupling with the floor and puts a dip in the low mids that I like. It also ensures the the full frequency range of the cab travels directly to my ears. The key here is this approach increases the ratio between direct sound which is clear, and indirect sound which is diffuse and incoherent.

Caveats to my approach: In really bad acoustic spaces, it's still hard to hear as well as I like. If you like a deeper thumpy sound, you will hate this approach.

Something that compounds the problem is most people want about 6-10dB "more me." In small spaces it can be difficult to get the desired 6-10db of more me because the distances between players and various sound sources is too small.

I will state this caveat. I am not an acoustic engineer, so the following may not about 100% technically correct. Hopefully it's close enough to help you.

The direct sound coming from you amp drops off at a rate of 6dB for each doubling of distance. Let's say you are 4 feet from your speaker and it is producing 90dB at 3'. At 4' the SPL is 10Log(3/4) + 90 = 88.75dB. I.E. the sound dropped off 1.25dB after travel from 3' to 4'.

Let's assumed the guitarist is 12' from you cab. The bass SPL he hears is 10Log(3/12) + 90 = ~84dB. In order for the guitarist to get the desired level of more me, the guitar's SPL must be 6-10db louder, or 90 to 94dB at his/her ears.

Let's assume the guitarist is also 4' from his/her cab and you are 12' from his/her cab. This means at 3' from the guitar cab, the SPL is 91.25 to 95.25. Let's assume the guitarist is set to 93.25dB at 3", which is in the middle of the range. At your position the guitar will sound like 10Log(3/12) + 93.25 = 87.3dB.

So you are hearing 88.75dB of bass and 87.3dB of guitar. This means your only getting 1.45dB of more me, which is probably way less than you want.

The more me issue is even worse in a big boomy hall because the sound builds up and bounces around. Under this condition the sound is smeared and diffuse, and the SPL is the same throughout the reverberant field. Keep in mind, the direct sound coming from your amp is louder close to the amp and drops off with distance. So at some point, the indirect sound which is the same SPL throughout the reverberant field can actually be louder than the direct sound you hear coming from your amp. It can be really hard to hear the bass clearly even when playing by yourself.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

I didn't read any comments but Im here to confirm Ive had a GKMB212ii for five years and it's a total beast, loud AF, totally capable - and far beyond - of what doing what you need.

 

[Cory rich40]

Are the singers loud because they're loud in the monitors?

Maybe partially. The sound guy yesterday was their father. I’m not saying he purposely turned them up but the guitarist hinted at that after church was over when we talked. He was already in a foul mood because the lead singer called him and said she couldn’t make it because she was sick

 

[Cory rich40]

It's complex problem, so it's pretty much impossible to make an accurate assessment without actually being in the room.

Worship halls tend to be big boomy spaces. This makes it very difficult to deliver a good bass sound and it also make it difficult for the bassist to hear. Since the bass builds up and sounds bad, people tend perceive it as too loud.


My approach: I elevate my amp and tilt it back to aim at my head. This reduces coupling with the floor and puts a dip in the low mids that I like. It also ensures the the full frequency range of the cab travels directly to my ears. The key here is this approach increases the ratio between direct sound which is clear, and indirect sound which is diffuse and incoherent.

Caveats to my approach: In really bad acoustic spaces, it's still hard to hear as well as I like. If you like a deeper thumpy sound, you will hate this approach.

Something that compounds the problem is most people want about 6-10dB "more me." In small spaces it can be difficult to get the desired 6-10db of more me because the distances between players and various sound sources is too small.

I will state this caveat. I am not an acoustic engineer, so the following may not about 100% technically correct. Hopefully it's close enough to help you.

The direct sound coming from you amp drops off at a rate of 6dB for each doubling of distance. Let's say you are 4 feet from your speaker and it is producing 90dB at 3'. At 4' the SPL is 10Log(3/4) + 90 = 88.75dB. I.E. the sound dropped off 1.25dB after travel from 3' to 4'.

Let's assumed the guitarist is 12' from you cab. The bass SPL he hears is 10Log(3/12) + 90 = ~84dB. In order for the guitarist to get the desired level of more me, the guitar's SPL must be 6-10db louder, or 90 to 94dB at his/her ears.

Let's assume the guitarist is also 4' from his/her cab and you are 12' from his/her cab. This means at 3' from the guitar cab, the SPL is 91.25 to 95.25. Let's assume the guitarist is set to 93.25dB at 3", which is in the middle of the range. At your position the guitar will sound like 10Log(3/12) + 93.25 = 87.3dB.

So you are hearing 88.75dB of bass and 87.3dB of guitar. This means your only getting 1.45dB of more me, which is probably way less than you want.

The more me issue is even worse in a big boomy hall because the sound builds up and bounces around. Under this condition the sound is smeared and diffuse, and the SPL is the same throughout the reverberant field. Keep in mind, the direct sound coming from your amp is louder close to the amp and drops off with distance. So at some point, the indirect sound which is the same SPL throughout the reverberant field can actually be louder than the direct sound you hear coming from your amp. It can be really hard to hear the bass clearly even when playing by yourself.

Here is an observation I’ve made. What you’ve said makes a whole lot of sense. We are playing floor level with the pulpits. We once played at a church where the pulpit was about a little over a foot over the floor level. We all sounded a lot better. Close to the best we’ve ever sounded

 

[RhinoBass]

All of my teachers from 8th grade through high school were disappointed with my tone and told me that on a regular basis.

 

[Michael Milner]

So you haven't really described how the group at church is set up. Are there drums? Who is (and isn't) miked? Are there monitors, a sound person, etc. It has been experience that in these settings, there can be some overkill (if that is the right term) in determining how the group sounds. Your rig should have plenty of volume; after all, most church services are relatively low volume affairs. I believe that "volume" is a group concept, everybody should be heard, without anyone being either over or under represented. Unless I misunderstood the OP, a 15 watt guitar amp (I'm assuming this is a smaller solid state model) isn't going to overpower your bass amp. As well, the guitarist can't be pushing too hard without feedback concerns (again I assume). Without knowing all the specifics, my 2 cents would be during the next rehearsal, have a neutral party (not a band member) stand out in the middle of where the congregation will be. Play one of your songs and have the listener critique the sound of the group. It doesn't sound to me that the issue is power; it is more likely something else. Good luck.

 

[Cory rich40]

I didn't read any comments but Im here to confirm Ive had a GKMB212ii for five years and it's a total beast, loud AF, totally capable - and far beyond - of what doing what you need.

Why is GK the only company I’ve seen do 212 combo’s? They do 410 combo’s too. I’m almost to the point of saying that you need at least 212’s to be heard with medium sized gigs. 210 combo’s or below don’t reach their full potential without an extension cabinet. In my opinion you need at least 300 watts. The Fender rumble 500 does that by itself. The Rumble stage 800 does 450 watts by itself. If you have to buy an extension cabinet your better off buying a head and cabinet.

 

[Wasnex]

I would go back to using your original bass guitar that worked well in that venue previously. Sometimes a particular combination just works better in certain circumstances.
Unless the singers have lots of low end EQ'd or your bass is straying into the vocalists frequency range you really shouldn't be fighting tonally.

There tends to be a lot of build up in the upper bass range through the low mids. Many sound sources contribute energy in this range and open mics tend to amplify it. Judicious use of HPFs on channel strips can be very helpful. If possible, I suggest configuring channel strips to pick off the monitor sends after the HPF.

I commonly ran vocal HPFs up around 200hz. A little lower for males and higher for females. The cutoff frequency should be tailored to the actual singing range the vocalist will cover. On occasion I have dropped a vocal HPF for one song. For example one of our male vocalist did a song in the lower baritone range which required dropping the HPF down to something like 100hz.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

Why is GK the only company I’ve seen do 212 combo’s? They do 410 combo’s too. I’m almost to the point of saying that you need at least 212’s to be heard with medium sized gigs. 210 combo’s or below don’t reach their full potential without an extension cabinet. In my opinion you need at least 300 watts. The Fender rumble 500 does that by itself. The Rumble stage 800 does 450 watts by itself. If you have to buy an extension cabinet your better off buying a head and cabinet.

Dunno man.
All I can say is the MB212ii looks pretty boring and uncool but totally kicks a$$ from here to eternity.
Light and loud. Default clean. Boost and grind possible with no pedals if needed. I'd consider a Kinetix, but nothing else really.

 

[Cory rich40]

So you haven't really described how the group at church is set up. Are there drums? Who is (and isn't) miked? Are there monitors, a sound person, etc. It has been experience that in these settings, there can be some overkill (if that is the right term) in determining how the group sounds. Your rig should have plenty of volume; after all, most church services are relatively low volume affairs. I believe that "volume" is a group concept, everybody should be heard, without anyone being either over or under represented. Unless I misunderstood the OP, a 15 watt guitar amp (I'm assuming this is a smaller solid state model) isn't going to overpower your bass amp. As well, the guitarist can't be pushing too hard without feedback concerns (again I assume). Without knowing all the specifics, my 2 cents would be during the next rehearsal, have a neutral party (not a band member) stand out in the middle of where the congregation will be. Play one of your songs and have the listener critique the sound of the group. It doesn't sound to me that the issue is power; it is more likely something else. Good luck.

Our rehearsals tend to sound a lot different. That’s why I’m confused. There are no technical problems with the amp. No issues with my bass. By the way, no drummer. The only thing I can tell you is that the sound man was the two lady’s father. Honestly they were pretty loud but I don’t know I would say too loud. Can people in the audience or congregation affect how sound bounces around? And I can tell you that the microphone squealed a few times(cordless Mike). The guitar player knows a lot more about sound than this man does. He told me that this gentleman went back there messing with the sound system while we were playing. When our lead singer called out, these two ladies became the lead singer. They were kind of filling in. I don’t know why their dad took it on himself to go back there and mess with the PA system. That’s probably my problem somehow. I’ve found that in a band setting, sometimes we effect the way other people sound. If a guitar and bassist are playing in the same frequencies it can make the bass muddy. I don’t know completely about the singers and the fill in sound guy being the cause of my issue but it’s mighty funny that I was loud enough before he got there with the second daughter while we were practicing before church. Bear with me, I’m still learning. As I’ve said before, I’ve never messed with sound and PA systems. I’ve ALWAYS played through an amp and let the others do their thing.

 

[Cory rich40]

So you haven't really described how the group at church is set up. Are there drums? Who is (and isn't) miked? Are there monitors, a sound person, etc. It has been experience that in these settings, there can be some overkill (if that is the right term) in determining how the group sounds. Your rig should have plenty of volume; after all, most church services are relatively low volume affairs. I believe that "volume" is a group concept, everybody should be heard, without anyone being either over or under represented. Unless I misunderstood the OP, a 15 watt guitar amp (I'm assuming this is a smaller solid state model) isn't going to overpower your bass amp. As well, the guitarist can't be pushing too hard without feedback concerns (again I assume). Without knowing all the specifics, my 2 cents would be during the next rehearsal, have a neutral party (not a band member) stand out in the middle of where the congregation will be. Play one of your songs and have the listener critique the sound of the group. It doesn't sound to me that the issue is power; it is more likely something else. Good luck.

None of the guitar players(me included) are miked

 

[Ggaa]

Stage parents are for real....

 

[Cory rich40]

Honestly. I could hear myself early on but the more further we went along the less I could hear myself. It’s still mind blowing that vocalists can effect the other instruments, if that’s what happened but I guess it makes sense

 

[Ggaa]

One of the reasons I avoid monitors when possible(I don't sing). As long as I can hear the count off I get more than enough of everything ambiently.

 

[Cory rich40]

If we found the problem. There is a strong possibility I wasn’t the only one affected. I just wasn’t paying attention because I was trying to figure out why o couldn’t hear myself.

 

[Cory rich40]

Here is the issue. The older sister is in her 50’s. The younger one is in her 40’s. Their dad is probably in his early 80’s. They were actually singing songs that their mother wrote for them before she died. I’m not about to interfere with a father’s proud moment. I get it. I’m just grateful that I think I have a far greater understanding of what was going on with the sound

 

[Ggaa]

Yeah, that's not a common thing.

 

[Cory rich40]

Yeah, that's not a common thing.

What’s that saying? If you don’t know then ask. You also have to remember that a lot of these sound people are just running through the motions and are in their position because the church couldn’t find nobody else. This is a common thing in my area unfortunately. The pandemic didn’t help things.

 

[Rooster009]

Probably a kick drum that’s to loud, plus the extra reverb from the backup singers, plus the extra little bit of bass the guitar player threw on his amp right before the lights went out.