• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Discovered the 'modes' and I'm confused....

The chart is really nice, but this statement is not accurate.

Dorian mode in the key of C major starts on D, but we call it D Dorian.

D,E,F,G,A,B,C

Dorian mode is the same intervals as natural minor, except the 6th is raised.

C Dorian is relative to Bb major.

C,D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb

Good to know!

That's interesting. I don't doubt at all that you are correct but it seems (to me) like extra mental acrobatics.

My thinking was to define the key and the mode rather than to define the first note in the mode, name the mode, and then have to figure out the key.

Probably not as difficult of an exercise for people that have every note in every key memorized backwards and forwards. (not me)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bright Midnight
The melodic minor is cool in that it is non diatonic while ascending and aeolian (natural minor) while descending.

Not exactly. The key of A minor has no accidentals, but AFAIK most would consider F,F#,G, and G# diatonic. In classical, A melodic minor ascending form is A,B,C,D,E,F#,G#,A. Descending form is A,G,F,E,D,C,B,A.


Maybe I'm wrong - but perhaps the differentiation lies between diatonic modes and non-diatonic modes or scales.
The harmonic and melodic minor etc include non-diatonic notes outside of the key.

I believe the term for modes generated from harmonic and melodic are called synthetic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bright Midnight
Not exactly. The key of A minor has no accidentals, but AFAIK most would consider F,F#,G, and G# diatonic. In classical, A melodic minor ascending form is A,B,C,D,E,F#,G#,A. Descending form is A,G,F,E,D,C,B,A.

So you are saying that Diatonic does NOT mean the 7 notes in a given key and more than 7 notes in a key can be considered diatonic?

This is going to be news to A LOT of people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bright Midnight
Good to know!

That's interesting. I don't doubt at all that you are correct but it seems (to me) like extra mental acrobatics.

Yes it can involve extra mental acrobatics. Back when I was practicing modes, I thought of modes diatonically (how they related to the Major key signature), and also like this.
upload_2023-12-29_14-35-28.png


My thinking was to define the key and the mode rather than to define the first note in the mode, name the mode, and then have to figure out the key.
I was confused in exactly the same way.

IMHO you should be able to go both ways. You need to know both the relative key and the form of each mode.

Most importantly is to use correct terminology so you can communicate with others.


Usually when a mode is indicated in a piece of music it stands on it's own.
This song uses D and E Dorian...notice the mode is specified in bar 2
so-what-lead-sheet.png

Sometimes you just have to know:
upload_2023-12-29_14-50-43.png

Both of these tunes use the same chords, modes, and form.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bright Midnight
Next time a bandmate plays an F# or a G# while in the key of C or A minor I'm gonna let it slide because, hey - its in key.

C and A minor may share a key signature, but musically they behave very differently.

So we as bass players have a tendency to obsess, wrongly, over modes. What's really important is the harmony. If you've got a musical situation where the 1 chord is Am, and you have a progression like this:

||: Am | Bm | Cmaj9 | G :||

That feels an awful lot like Am. But one of those chords has an F# in it. That gives it a "lighter" sound, and you could posit that this chord progression is in A dorian. But it's a little bit more clear to simply describe this as A minor and not worry about it so damn much.

How about the "Jam Band Standard?"

||: Am7 | D9 :||

I've seen this described before as a 2-5 in G. But where's the G? I've spend many, many, many hours in bands playing this exact chord progression, unaltered, never resolving. That's because it actually does resolve, because A is the 1 and D9 is the dominant 4. No need for extra mental gymnastics. And yes, A dorian works over this. But so does G major and C lydian and D mixo, etc etc because they are all the same scale.

How about something with traditional functional harmony:

||Am7 | Bm7b5 E7#9 :||

G# becomes an awfully important note in the key of A minor sometimes, because if you want to have a 5 chord, you need a major third above E which doesn't occur in any major scale modes, so we needed to invent the idea of "harmonic minor," which itself works well as a toolbox to rummage through for soloing ideas. You're gonna be playing G#'s a lot in that case.

Now you did mention the key of C. I play F#'s and G#'s all the time as passing tones to nearby chord tones. I'll only use them as extensions, or in the case of G# a #5 chord tone, in certain circumstances. But they're there, available to make interesting sounds. Of course you can't just do this randomly, otherwise you just sound like someone grasping for notes that you can't yet hear in your head, leading to unmusical disjointedness. Generally speaking, minor keys end up with more possibilities for notes to be used in chords and solos because of the V7 chord being so easy to alter and make it fit.

Back to why bass players obsess over modes: we don't have the ability on our instrument to produce meaningful harmony. If you don't have any ability on piano or guitar or another instrument that is designed to play chords, then you're lacking the ability to play for yourself the harmony that you are tasked with supporting as a bassist. That's why I think it's pretty important to know some piano or guitar, regardless of what instrument you focus on as your primary.

*EDIT: In continuing to think about the subject, I think it's important to differentiate the idea of using modes as soloing tools (which in many cases can be a fool's errand) and the idea of modes as their own keys. More on that in the video and paragraph below.*

Highly recommend watching the video below until at least the 10 minute mark. Ted Greene perfectly sums up his view on keys and modes and how he manipulates the sound.

 
Last edited:
I've spend many, many, many hours in bands playing this exact chord progression, unaltered, never resolving. That's because it actually does resolve

I'm trying to understand your statement.
"never resolving" and "it actually does resolve."

A is the 1 and D9 is the dominant 4.

From the music theory:
"Dominant chords are built from the fifth degree of a diatonic scale."
 
I'm trying to understand your statement.
"never resolving" and "it actually does resolve."



From the music theory:
"Dominant chords are built from the fifth degree of a diatonic scale."

It never resolves if you're stuck in the mindset of "all harmony must be I II III IV V7 VI VIIdim." But not all harmony works that way. Blues, for instance, is an entire genre of music that completely does away with "music theory" and has I, IV, and V dominant chords. There's no diatonic scale governing the blues, yet we have dominant chords.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Whousedtoplay
Yes and no.
From a DISTANCE, Blues has I, IV, and V chords from "Music Theory."
Any "additives" to those chords (including those "dominant"chords) - it's just a "flavor" of the chord.
N.B. It's only MY OPINION!

You've hit it, "it's just the flavor of the chord." That's super important. Chords can be changed and embellished to suit the taste of the musician. But ultimately, there is ALMOST always a tonal center. The chords surrounding that tonal center, or I chord, can come from the major scale, or they can come from the modes, and they can be altered, unaltered, augmented, etc. Ted Greene from the video I posted above demonstrates playing in A Minor, but changing the surrounding chords from dorian to aeolian and back. That's what I think so many bass players often miss: modal playing is not just going to yourself "It's a II chord I must play dorian!" Modal playing is taking a chord from a scale, making that your tonal center, and essentially spinning the harmony wheel so that you still have the same order of chords as whatever scale you're working with. So playing in A dorian gives you:

Im7 IIm7 bIIImaj7 IV7 Vm7 VIm7b5 bVIImaj7

Now those are just the basic chords. You can always be adding in passing diminished chords, subdominant chords, etc etc. A key is a guideline, not a prison.
 
So I discovered the modes just now, but how do they relate to say the blues scale? How can you use 'modes' in the blues scale for example?

I've found a very informative (and a long one) web-site about "Blues Tonality."
Blues tonality

Some extracts from it.
"There are several scales referred to as “blues scales.”"

"Unlike diatonic scales and modes, however, the chords built from the blues scale will not be comprised solely of pitches found within the scale."


"While blues melodies fall outside of the diatonic system, they do not create the feeling of unease or conflict that they would in a classical context."

"The blues treats dominant seventh chords in a strikingly different way from common-practice European tonal harmony. In the blues, dominant sevenths can be tonic chords, destinations for harmonic closure."

"Even though so many blues songs eschew V7-I cadences, some theorists continue to insist that blues harmony fundamentally adheres to the norms of tonality."

 
Wow! Thanks for this! I printed it out to pin up in my mannish cave. It’s answering all my questions at one time.

Awesome, I'm glad you like it. It has lots of information packed in it.
I had fun putting it together.

Just remember (as many folks in this thread have mentioned ) when speaking with theory nerds ALWAYS refer to the mode by the starting note and not by the key it belongs to.

And ... even notes outside of the key can identify as diatonic if they want to. lol :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: whatizitman
So you are saying that Diatonic does NOT mean the 7 notes in a given key and more than 7 notes in a key can be considered diatonic?

This is going to be news to A LOT of people.
It's true, though. In A minor, F, F#, G, and G# would all be widely considered diatonic to the key. That's just how minor harmony works. Don't get hung up on the fact that F# and G# aren't explicitly specified by the key signature. The key signature doesn't determine the key, it's just a notational convenience that typically reflects the key.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Whousedtoplay

Latest posts