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"Discovering Tone"

#22
bassgod0dmw said:
I don't think you're going to find very many bassists agreeing with that.
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The Vibe i get is... "cool that works" in a novelty kind of way. Ill be honest ... it's not necessary. But i can sacrifice something if im only paying 250.00 for a giggable rig that is versatile enough to cover any sound you can throw at it.

If i didn't have it though... an SVT on a 4 x 10 does have a certain appeal.
 
#23
Your tone, to me, is what you think you should sound like when you play. Maybe it's to sound like Jaco, Jack Bruce or Geddy Lee. Whatever makes you happy when you think and hear it.

Once you know what you want, lots of folks can help you get it. (for me it's p-bass streamliner and 210XLT...but thatme)

And of course there's the timeworn threads on you sound the same on whatever you play. I know I do and I'm not close to any of the above
 
#24
BMBassman said:
I'm curious for thoughts / input, or some of your experience and process on discovering tone or developing an ear for it. I know its sensory and subjective and about perception, but how do you start? I feel like right now, I couldn't pick out or appreciate the difference between the 'perfect tone' and the worst tone in the world. And I'm not sure how to buy gear when I can't hear that...
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Here's my suggestion. Above all, your tone comes from your fingers. What you should do is spend a lot of time recording yourself. Get yourself a decent recording setup and a good set of studio quality headphones and record yourself playing the bass lines to your tunes. This will let you objectively sit back and listen to what you really sound like. You want a nice full, round tone, with the ability to play cleanly without a bunch of fret clack, string buzz, etc. I know from my experience at NAMM that one player can come into the booth and sound horrible, while the next guy comes in, pick up the same bass through the same amp and sounds amazing. It really is all in the fingers.

My next suggestion is for your band to hire a good recording engineer to help you with your sound. Tell him you are having trouble finding a tone that works in your band and that you would like help improving your tone. Rent a decent sized rehearsal room and have him/her come down and listen to your band. Someone with a good ear and good knowledge of EQ techniques should be able to make some suggestions that will let your tone work much better within the context of the music you are playing.

I've done this with numerous bands I've been in and it is always money well spent. You'd be surprised out how much of a difference a good engineer can make in just one visit. Most likely it won't be just a matter of fixing the bass either. Your tone problems may be in part, due to other forces, like the guitarist dominating you sonic place, or your drummer's kit being tuned like crap (you'd be amazed at just how many drummers never learn to tune their kit). Most likely it's a combination of a lot of little things. Whatever the problems are, a good engineer should be able to make you and your band sound a whole lot better.
 
#25
bassgod0dmw said:
Axe-FX
Axe-FX II
Kemper

Lots of guys are using these, and they are pretty awesome.
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Not really a lot, but more. Getting guitar players away from tubes and cabs is impossible. I play with a very reasonable guitar player, I have been trying to get him to go power amp/pre-amp for a while now... I'll get him over to the SS darkside yet!

I do play with one guy who uses a Line6 POD pedal, most drunks don't even notice, and it is an easy load in/out. Hitting the road in a van with room to spare and no trailer is pretty nice.
 
#26
DiabolusInMusic said:
Not really a lot, but more. Getting guitar players away from tubes and cabs is impossible. I play with a very reasonable guitar player, I have been trying to get him to go power amp/pre-amp for a while now... I'll get him over to the SS darkside yet!

I do play with one guy who uses a Line6 POD pedal, most drunks don't even notice, and it is an easy load in/out. Hitting the road in a van with room to spare and no trailer is pretty nice.
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I saw a band once that the guitarist was using a multifunction pedalboard into a slave amp and sounded great.
 
#27
One of the hardest things for me to wrap my head around was how different playing in a band mix is from playing at home alone.

At home I'd find tone so beautiful it'd make a grown man weep, same settings but louder in band practice and it sounded like crap. Or it'd sound great on the E & A strings but the D & G would be inaudible. Or I'd cut through with so much mids that I felt like a buzzsaw...

No real solution in my case besides realizing that home-tone and band-tone were two completely different beasts, and then keeping track of my settings with the band and trying different things to improve the mix.
 
#28
Truer words were never written, Craig. You leave your practice room with the world's greatest, but after the first four bars with the band you realize that it could not possibly sound worse than if you ran your bass through a boombox! That's what I love about music...it's an unpredictable passion.
 
#29
I just posted this in another thread but think it makes sense here as well ...

I have been using SansAmp BDDI (with Fat Tube setting) with my G-K amp (MB500) running into a pair of 212MBEs and have been happy with that for some months. Recently, I have been studying "gig tapes" quite carefully and noticed two things: 1) what I hear while playing standing in front of cabs is not what ends up on the Zoom recordings from front of stage, 2) the BDDI does not add bottom.

To expand:

1) while it sounds great to me running with fat tube setting on BDDI it is actually a totally scooped tone and it gets lost in the mix, and actually leads to a very muddy tone in recordings from gigs
2) the BDDI may add warmth, but it totally sucks ultra bottom out ... The BDDI must have a built in high pass filter, 'cause A/B'ing with and without BDDI on it is OBVIOUS that my rig has way more output on the fundamental of the E string without the BDDI (and much more cone travelling)

So, currently I am trying to not use the BDDI. It is tough, because one kind of gets used to that tone, and disengaging it makes the dry signal sound shallow and too much like a bass GUITAR and not like a bass, if you understand. Too much string tone. But in recordings it works better ... Much better. I think I'm coming to the conclusion that the BDDI is for DI studio recording, and not for live gigging?

So, me too also: I love my home tone, and constantly obsess about my rehearsal/gig tone
 
#30
Son of Bovril said:
^ +1000

As a bassist you hear yourself as a full range instrument that is equally important to every other instrument in the mix. Most other musicians and even engineers pretty much only want to hear you from about 200hz and below - pretty much that smiley face eq that we all try to avoid so tediously

...

The fact that the majority of our actual tone comes from our midrange is a problem because that is exactly where no one else wants to hear us apparently. Certain music types seem to allow for more room for the bass, but in any kind of heavy rock or metal with distorted guitars, you will find very few bands that allow the bass to hold it's own as an instrument. Add to that the fact that many guitarists in these styles are down tuning with 7 or 8 string guitars, leaves us with very little sonic spaces to shelve ourselves
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This has been largely my experience. Many people - including, unfortunately, a lot of sound people - really have no clue about what makes a good bass tone and what makes a bass guitar sit well in a mix, especially with regard to kick drums and high-gain guitar amplifiers. They think "bass," so they think a lot of sub-200hz. What they're failing to realize is that "bass" is the register of the instrument, not necessarily the tone. Really, the bass guitar is probably a lot closer to the range of a trombone than a tuba. There's also a ton of harmonic information between 200hz and 4k that helps a bass guitar sound good in a mix.

To answer the OP's question, the best thing to do is go out and listen to a lot of live mixes. After a while, you'll know a good bass tone when you hear it. It will be full, yet distinct. There won't be any flabbiness to the bottom-end, and it won't fight for sonic space with the other instruments...which of course has to do with how the other instruments are mixed. I know a lot of guitar players who have been playing for years, and they still think a smiley-face EQ is the way to go. :rolleyes:
 
#31
bassgod0dmw said:
Axe-FX
Axe-FX II
Kemper

Lots of guys are using these, and they are pretty awesome.
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The Axe-FX stuff is pretty amazing. Unfortunately, when people talk about modeling, they're usually referring to the standard Line 6 stuff. There's a world of difference between Fractal Audio and Line 6 (and the price reflects that too).

I really like the clean tones I hear from Line 6 guitar equipment, but the overdrive always sounds overly compressed and processed to my ears.
 
#32
R Baer said:
It really is all in the fingers.
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While I believe that your fingers are thee most important part of your sound, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that it's as simple as being all in your fingers, Roger.

There are certain limitations in equipment that sometimes just can't be overcome by the player. For example, take this recording of Flea. Obviously, Flea's an accomplished player. Here he's playing his Flea Bass, which is a budget, entry level bass. And even in the hands of Flea, it sounds like an entry level budget bass. Primarily, it has that excessive high-mid honk that can't be dailed out and loose fundamental that's often apparent with cheaper basses.



The professional recording probably shows the warts of the bass EVEN MORE than the cheap camera recording.

BTW, speaking of great tone, I'm still diggin' the Berg, Roger. I'm still knocked out every time I plug into one of those cabs. :D
 
#33
Ime, if it sounds great to you on stage, it won't sound good to the crowd. In general, most bass players have their rig set up to be too boomy. You want a big full tone for your own enjoyment, but fail to realize bass frequencies are magnified by the room you are in. If your tone is huge on stages, it will be muddy and too loud to the the
Crowd (the people we are being paid to please) we all need to learn to serve the song, and live with a thinner stage tone. This of course not relevant if you are playing huge stages with awesome pa and pro engineer. But for the small clubs that rely on our amp, it is all about the midrange. Don't listen to your guitar player, he, like you is too close to your amp. Borrow a good wireless and stand in the middle of the room and notice how your tinny stage sound becomes huge 50 feet away. ROGER'S advice about hiring a pro engineer to fix your bands sound is a good one. Maybe your guitar player will listen to him when he tells the guitar player to take some bass out of his tone to make room for you.
Also, no one has said this yet, but flatwound strings can do wonders for fixing a mix. You should invest 30 on a set if chromes. They will take the upper highs out of your tone, add fundamental, and add midrange complexity. You would be surprised how well this works...
 
#34
BMBassman said:
So I just read something in a thread in Basses that got me thinking. Someone was talking about buying gear (bass and amp), and one of the replies talked about 'discovering tone'.
I've been playing for quite awhile, but feel like I just don't have an ear for tone. One band I was in even brought it up, although all he could tell me was 'you sound like crap. You should sound like a BASS'. OK, great. Thanks for helping me grow and learn.
Anyway, I am happy with my basses right now (Geddy Jazz, Ibanez Artcore and ESP 5-er), and I'm ready to spend (within reasonable bounds) on amp and cabs. I have a decent collection of pedals, but I'm kind of pulling back on that, as I want to get good straight tone first, then add effects to enhance.
I'm curious for thoughts / input, or some of your experience and process on discovering tone or developing an ear for it. I know its sensory and subjective and about perception, but how do you start? I feel like right now, I couldn't pick out or appreciate the difference between the 'perfect tone' and the worst tone in the world. And I'm not sure how to buy gear when I can't hear that...
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I think it’s really something that comes with time from playing with a lot of different musicians in many different environments (rooms and outdoors). One thing you can do is - listen to your favorite CDs, it will give you an idea of what a good mix should sound like and take it from there. For example, in a power trio it’s really nice when the guitar and bass mix in a way that it creates overtones at times yet separate and distinguishing - in other words, each instrument should complement and enhance the other. Anyway - yeah listening to your favorite CD’s will help you learn what a good bass tone is that sits well within a mix and then apply what you learned to your live playing and mixing-in with the others.

As far as picking your bass amp/cab goes - that’s a another whole topic and learning to blend/mix well with others as appose to getting “My Tone” is key, so it will be easier for you to pick after you listen to some CD‘s and apply what you learned with your band mates and etc.

EDIT: PS, not only will the way you play change tone (meat of thumb vs. finger tips, attack, etc) as already pointed out - but so will your playing position - for example, there is more treble near the bridge (faster too, usless slapping) appose to more bass over the neck pickup. ;)
 
#35
There are a few tricks I use to get a good sound on stage.

  1. Watch the lows - Controlling the low end content is key to making the notes articulate. There are so many things in a room that work against your low-end. Be prepared to severely limit your lows. A variable high-pass filter is very helpful here. You may need to roll off everything below 100 Hz by 10-15 dB in some extreme cases. You often don't need as much lows as you think.
  2. Balance your lows and low-mids - If you want to use more lows, then try rolling off low-mids. This usually means attenuating somewhere in the range of 125-225. This range can often be muddy.
  3. Pick a mid focus - often times it helps to boost mids in a particular area. This gives the sound some focus. What range depends on the sound you are going for and what the other instruments are doing. Often this is accompanied by cuts in adjacent regions. I would look for something in the 400-2000 Hz range for this. Lower ranges are darker, smoother, and fatter. Upper ranges more growly, biting, edgier.
  4. Compressors are very good at adding definition and articulation to the bass when used properly.
  5. Don't worry about anything above 4K if you are in a loud rock band. You are competing with guitar, and drums here, and they are going to kick your butt!!
 
#36
LiquidMidnight said:
While I believe that your fingers are thee most important part of your sound, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that it's as simple as being all in your fingers, Roger.

There are certain limitations in equipment that sometimes just can't be overcome by the player...
Click to expand...

Agreed that it's hard to make poor equipment sound wonderful, but I was referring more towards the fact that it's almost impossible for a player without the tone "built in" to get a good tone by simply buying pro level gear. I saw this numerous times at NAMM. Guy comes into the booth, picks up a 3k Nordy plugs into 3K worth of my amps and sounds horrible. Yet the next player picks up the same bass and without touching a dial, manages to get unbelievably great tone from the exact same signal chain. When you hear this over and over again for days, you come to realize just how much of your tone is simply coming from your fingers.

As far as learning how to create good tone, I put most of my knowledge down to the fact that I spent a ton of time in the studio recording and mixing. All that experience working with EQ's really taught me what is what in regards to my instrument's frequency range. A lot of players simply don't know what 100Hz, or 1K sounds like and using the amp's EQ simply because a matter of trial and error twisting knobs. It's important as a player to be able to hear yourself within the context of the music you are playing and be able to say, "Hmmm, I think I need a little boost at 80Hz to fatten things up and I have a little too much at 3K going on". That's a big reason why top session guys continue to get the work. Besides their chops, they are able to listen to how their tone is working with the band and make the needed adjustments quickly.
 
#37
R Baer said:
Agreed that it's hard to make poor equipment sound wonderful, but I was referring more towards the fact that it's almost impossible for a player without the tone "built in" to get a good tone by simply buying pro level gear. I saw this numerous times at NAMM. Guy comes into the booth, picks up a 3k Nordy plugs into 3K worth of my amps and sounds horrible. Yet the next player picks up the same bass and without touching a dial, manages to get unbelievably great tone from the exact same signal chain. When you hear this over and over again for days, you come to realize just how much of your tone is simply coming from your fingers.
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This is a great point roger. I would distil it down to "all the gear in the world can't help you if you suck"
 

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