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DIY 10/6 or 12/6 isolation cab for recording?

#61
Cost is a factor in almost every aspect of life except sex, and even then it costs indirectly (a lot sometimes):D. How much of a deciding factor cost is depends on your own personal situation.

Rolling off at 200-300hz is absolutely not common among a lot of bass drivers, at least not nowdays.

What would be called upper-mid to high freq. response can be had from larger drivers but only on axis, move to the side a bit and it disappears.

The material a dustcap is made of has far less effect on highend response as does things like thickness and mass.

I'll leave the technical why's and why not's to the real pro's. Much of this can be learned by reading and asking instead of arguing and instigating. Set up your rig with any old 115 cab in your backyard where there are no boundry effects and play it moving from left to right, then center again, then closer and farther away, etc.
 
#62
BogeyBass said:
as far as the 15CX1000

I was hoping you could see past the cost of the driver, and elaborate more on its performance and ratings. due to the data you supplied on the E-130.It seems you are knowledgeable enough to provide some insight other than cost. I noticed myself that the SPL really starts to roll off at 300/200 HZ but that is fairly common among bassdrivers, but fairly worse with the 15CX1000. oh well...the high end response is great for the most part.

What 15" driver do you recommend ?

i understand SPL curves i was just using the 50-6k
as a reference from the websites data . I'm well aware most are over rated. and a chart is the only way to show accurate ratings, i just didn't have one in front of me.

isn't phase cancellation and time delay a problem in 2 way systems...has it been found or measured in the fearful design.
if so could setting back the 6" driver from the woofer help reduce delay..similar to the way most modern hi fi designs use a angle or tilt back baffles?....im not beating on the design im just asking nicely.

for the most part thou im curious on your 15" recommendation and what is your opinion on the
eminence Kappalite 3015

http://www.usspeaker.com/Kappa%20Lite-3015-1.htm
Click to expand...

I'm curious as to why you think the E130 is a bass speaker? It was clearly meant for the guitar, not bass. The E140 was made for bass guitar. Also, as far as 15's go, the Eminence 3015 and 3015LF has been the be all, end all of 15's here on TalkBass for a couple of years now. Do a search if you've got the time.
 
#64
jnewmark said:
I'm curious as to why you think the E130 is a bass speaker? It was clearly meant for the guitar, not bass. The E140 was made for bass guitar. Also, as far as 15's go, the Eminence 3015 and 3015LF has been the be all, end all of 15's here on TalkBass for a couple of years now. Do a search if you've got the time.
Click to expand...

I don't think a E-130 is a bass speaker, the original thread was talking about using "guitar" type speakers to be used in a isolation chamber for recording.

everybody seemed to be recommending small low cost drivers that have a " extended top end that isn't to harsh"

so INSTEAD i recommended a large, expensive speaker instead, that had good spec and great SPL.

billfitzmaurice said:
Exactly. And if you're doing an isolation cab there's no reason to use anything more than a single ten, and a very inexpensive one at that, either an Alpha or Beta. The entire reason for an isolation cab is to get a highly colored sound.
Click to expand...

rpsands said:
You don't need to worry about off-axis reproduction with a mic, since by definition it's on-axis.

Depending on how hard you want to drive it, I'd run a guitar 10 or a nice PA 10 with extended top end that isn't too harsh. It's going to depend on a lot on how loud you want it of course, and it's also going to depend on whether you want speaker coloration or not.
Click to expand...

here is the specs of all recommended drivers, which i have taking from the header information as listed on the "Us Speaker"
website. argue what you want im just using the data provided by the distributor, who im sure can all read SPL charts.

JBL E130 = 50 - 6k 105dB

Beyma 10BR60= 30 - 5K 91dB

Alpha 10A= 57 - 4.5k 95dB

Beta 10A = 51- 3.8k 97dB

so i figured 6k and 105 dB didn't seem to be to bad in a low level recording situation. and seemed to be a good highend
thats all....
 
#65
They can read SPL charts but SPL charts are not polar response charts. Please google 'polar response,' and get back to us.

Also, the 50-6k for a JBL E130 is an out and out fabrication unless you're talking +/- 10db.

For a recording situation, the E130 might be a fine sounding driver but it'll be extremely colored, and nothing like the fEarful in flatness.

The OP is trying to reproduce the sound of pushed power tube compression, which will sound awesome with or without a colored speaker.
 
#66
BogeyBass said:
im just using the data provided by the distributor, who im sure can all read SPL charts.
..
Click to expand...
The question is whether you can either read or understand them. If your contention is that the D130 has useful response from 50 - 6k at 105dB sensitivity the answer would be no.
Giving advise about technical matters where you have a certain level of expertise is very helpful to those seeking it. Giving advise about technical matters that you don't comprehend yourself, not so much.
 
#67
i understand that manufactures overate their products.

so assume they all overate at 10 to 30%

subtract all that , the list still displays in the same order

and keep telling me a 91dB speaker has more polar response than a 105db speaker. with the same amount of power supplied in the test.

and some how shoving low cost speakers in a box with passive crossovers is improving polar response.

Aside from theory and data on paper, in the end the final test is the listening test.

and of the hundreds of listening test ive been in.....
usually a 300$ speaker will outperform a 89$ speaker
pretty much everytime....

no matter how much theory you throw at a 89$ driver

a 89$ driver will always sound like a 89$ driver no matter how special the wood box you stick it in.

i love guys with passion and i must say you guys have much passion.....of all the heated ego battles. you guys are my favorite people here.;)

i do not disagree with multi drivers....i just don't like passive crossovers...im more of a active crossover guy maybe thats why we butt heads.....i simple cannot stand cheap drivers and don't waste energy trying to improve them.....because you can't.
 
#70
BogeyBass said:
cool....can you supply me a list of the drivers you recommend
or have used in the fEarful design.

i have already seen the 6" driver i believe...but a complete list would be great.
Click to expand...

Mine has:
Kappalite 3015LF
18 sound 6nd410 midrange (I have seen the Beyma 605nd used and the B&C 6md38, but the latter is pretty underpowered for the application)

The designs are intended to use the Kappalite 3012LF/3015LF and the 18 sound 6nd410 or Eminence Alpha/Alphalite midrange depending on the size. Most people prefer the 6nd410 for the smaller cab too, and more padding, as it opens a lot of flexibility.

The 6nd410 is an amazing driver. 100+db above 500hz with decent off-axis performance to 3500hz according to the polar response charts, and a smooth falloff in the upper treble suitable for a high pass only to a horn, saving a lot of complexity in parts.

While I don't prefer passive crossovers myself, they allow me to use a 3lb 1u GK head for 90% of my gigs. The rule of the day is "good enough to get the job done."
 
#71
the 15" has a crossover too? or is it just fullrange

12dB 24dB crossovers?

the 3015 has a little more top end but less xmax have you heard both drivers?

technically i guess its off subject to this thread...but i think we have raped this thread already right?
 
#72
12db down 18db up is the GB crossover. There's 12db down around 700ish hz on the 15 and an 18db up on the 6, IIRC.

The 3015 sounds better full range than the 3015LF but the low end isn't even close. Flipside, the 3015 works great in a tiny box (2.5 cf even at the bottom end), but the LF not so much.
 
#73
the impedance curve is slightly better on the LF, and even thou the spl seems to be lower on the bottom end than the 3015, im guessing that just a slightly lower resonant freq can have a big effect. both speakers seem to be using the same magnet.

i wonder what it is that improves the lowend, besides the usual voice coil overhang...which is probably all it is...
more overhang less high end thou...and thats very obvious between the 2

Have you ever bypassed the lower crossover and just listen
to it fullrange? with the 6" running as well, im a real big fan of fullrange 15 they seem to be more natural / better on midrange than what a crossovered 6" could deliver. of course the 6 would have much better high .700hz seems decent but a little on the low side maybe for the 15"

700hz is the upper crossover as well right? just at 18dB than 12
 
#74
a 20.5 inch cabinet could be enlarged to 24"
to give a driver a little more airspace that it wants to see.

24" is still on the compact side...and a standard size for many cabs.
A compact single ported 15" cabinet was made by Sunn about
40 years ago for their portable sonic 1 amp
24" x 24" by 15" deep with a 4inch port
which is pretty much the 200s cut in half. the latter B15H is 16" deep for high powered drivers.

Mesa boogie, GK, Crate, Aguilar have all copied the 200s

here is the compact 1 x 15 sonic cab
with ancient drivers that extend well up to 5 to 6K

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
#75
BogeyBass said:
the 15" has a crossover too? or is it just fullrange

12dB 24dB crossovers?

the 3015 has a little more top end but less xmax have you heard both drivers?

technically i guess its off subject to this thread...but i think we have raped this thread already right?
Click to expand...

Please just read the fEarful WIKI and/or the linked threads (6000+ posts!) rather than making us answer all these questions yet another time. Or at least ask in the current fEarful build thread. ;)
 
#77
the 3015LF sounds like crap full range unless you cut 6+ db at 1200hz or so.

The 3015Lf has slightly lower fs (44hz vs. 45hz), higher qts (.46 vs .34 or whatever). I assume those are the factors in it being beefier on bottom. Having less mid response in exchange for bottom end is a time honored tradition in loudspeakers.
 
#78
rpsands said:
the 3015LF sounds like crap full range unless you cut 6+ db at 1200hz or so.

.
Click to expand...

so to achieve that 1200hz or so cut, you use a 18dB crossover at 700hz?
thats just a question not a criticism

so it was just my thought using a much softer 12dB or 6dB
crossover could allow a more natural sound. but still serve the purpose of operating the driver in its ideal freq.

i was thinking an octave higher at 1400 instead of 700
but you just stated 1200 so maybe thats about right.

otherwise im still weeding threw the hundreds of pages on the design...and not sure if i should just start a new thread.

since i don't want to upset anyone more than i already have.

im no crossover expert thats for sure, most my filter design comes from preamps. even 12dB filters can create lots of dips especially with lots of Q. they can sound really goofy unless you want that...say for cabinet emulations and such...but thats more software related...the cool thing is there is no quess work and funky graphs to look at, with software i can change a freq and listen to it right away and play my bass thru it for an instant listening test. which could be helpful if i actually had these drivers mounted. I could find ideal crossover with active filters, and then just build a passive version.

for the most part, i think im going to get out of this thread and stay out of trouble. im reading the link passinwind sent, along with some others.
 
#79
12db at around 700hz, yes. That gets you -12db by 1400hz, which is just about perfect.

If I was using an active crossover I'd do 24db/oct both ways starting at 500hz and experiment.

All I can say is if you're no crossover expert it's probably best not to insult someone else's crossover design by calling it "peaky like a mountain" or whatever it was you said.

A 1200hz crossover would be workable for the 3015LF if you used a zobel to limit the insane peak (which starts at 800hz and gets nasty nasty around 1200). But that's going to take a lot more screwing around to get right and it won't make it sound any more natural.
 

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