Do I need a second speaker cab?

[Lowtonejoe]

Thanks. I agree, more power would get me more volume, and the little Eden cab could take it, but I'm running at 8 ohms right now, and my thinking is that a second cab will get me down to 4 ohms and will let the Trace make more power, at which point I think I'll have sufficient power. (and the addition of a 15" speaker) I am loving the sound of the Trace through the Eden and I don't want to change my sound, I just want to get more volume. Maybe a bit more bottom. Maybe I just want to justify my GAS for an Eden D115XLT. I'm thinking that my next move is to add that 15" bottom cab and then, if later if I run into a need for even more head room, then I'll go to a bigger head or pre/power set up. So if I run my AH250 into the D210XLT and a D115XLT, I'll be putting a healthy 250 Watts (by all accounts) into cabs that can handle 350 and 400 watts, but I see that as just having a very low potential for damaging my speakers. That's kind of where I want to go, unless there's something about this plan that just doesn't make sense. I think that the AH250 powering the Eden 115 and 210 will have enough power to shake down buildings and will sound sexy as hell. Unless there's a reason not to, I think I need to just find a good 115 cab (hopefully a D115XLT) and go from there.

Matt,

That would be a nice sounding rig.

The extra cone surface will probably help more than the little bit extra power you will be making, though.

If it works for you...GREAT!!!



Joe.

P.S. Be looking at what head to upgrade to though.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

He's right, 3dB is barely distinguishable, and equals doubling the power.

Randy

Read the article......read the article.....

 

[Passinwind]

Read the article......read the article.....

The most commonly used rule of thumb is ten times the power for double the perceived loudness. The catch is perceived though.

One of a zillion online articles that doesn't completely agree (or completely disagree, for that matter) with the one you posted: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/loud.html#c1

 

[Kilian.]

Tell them to turn down.

Being on 150 watt (I assume you are) is loud*! You'd better tell them to turn down a bit, because:
- your ears will survive much longer
- you can hear eachother better
- you can hear mistakes better (as well as with recording your band)
- you can keep the stagenoise down! Which will lead to better sound for the audience and making the soundguy happy.
- you won't spend more money.


Did I said wrong things here? Or do we want to run around with 5 cabinets and pump over 15000 dollar into equipment?


*(ok ok don't go tech bitching here, just throwing in some numbers)

 

[steveksux]

An increase from 6dB to 10dB is perceived by most listeners as "double" the volume

You act like the article supports your statement that quadrupling the power doubles the volume. That's the bare minimum required so that "some" people think the volume's doubled. Interesting that we're saying 10dB, also supported by the same article you're quoting, yet you're saying we're wrong to say 10dB and you're right to say 6dB?

The preponderance of the literature out there claims 10dB is the "correct" number. Given that, and an article that puts the range somewhere between 6dB and 10dB, maybe there's more evidence to support the 10dB, since that is corroborated and the 6dB number is not?

Randy

 

[cheezewiz]

Short answer. Yes you do. I'd ad another 210.

 

[steveksux]

Short answer. Yes you do. I'd ad another 210.

+1 If you had more wattage to spare and liked the sound of the 115 better, that'd be ok too. But with limited watts to go around, you like the current sound of the existing 210, another 210 will be a better choice IMO.

Randy

 

[Lowtonejoe]

You act like the article supports your statement that quadrupling the power doubles the volume. That's the bare minimum required so that "some" people think the volume's doubled. Interesting that we're saying 10dB, also supported by the same article you're quoting, yet you're saying we're wrong to say 10dB and you're right to say 6dB?

The preponderance of the literature out there claims 10dB is the "correct" number. Given that, and an article that puts the range somewhere between 6dB and 10dB, maybe there's more evidence to support the 10dB, since that is corroborated and the 6dB number is not?

Randy

Right? Wrong? Act like? You/We?

Percieved volume is a funny thing.

My opinion is based on knowledge accumulated thus changes with new data.

So far it looks like it can go either way.

Any notion on who's data we should go by?

(not you or me but some sort of official sanctioning body)



Joe.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

The most commonly used rule of thumb is ten times the power for double the perceived loudness. The catch is perceived though.

One of a zillion online articles that doesn't completely agree (or completely disagree, for that matter) with the one you posted: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/loud.html#c1

Great that clears things up.

So what is the correct answer? Who do we go by?

Sorry I missed you last weekend Charlie. Things didn't work out and it turns out for the better that I didn't go.

I hope you guys had fun!



Joe.

 

[ebladeboi123]

You have gas... I can't think of the last gig when I actually have used more than 1/3 of my heads power (300 watt GK). When you gig, most of you sound comes from the DI, whether you like it or not. Unless you're talkin smaller shows, in which case its all your amp. Those are the worst shows, the DB level right in front of the amps is horrible. Also, learn to practice quieter. If your drummer plays to loud- hit him or something. Make him play with brushes, or theres another kinda stick (dunno the name) that is basically a buncha small sticks rolled into 1, that are quieter. But honestly, TURN DOWN. You should honestly be okay. But, if you really really fell the need for an extra cab, go right ahead. Why should i stop you?

 

[Passinwind]

Great that clears things up.

So what is the correct answer? Who do we go by?

I live to obfuscate.Invalid Link Removed

For some reason many of the the Australian sources I've seen tend to go with 6dB, and the vast majority of others seem to go with 10dB. The link I posted was referenced from the Rane website, but you'll find similar pages all over the web, from Prosoundweb to SynAudCon to the Acoustical Society Of America. There isn't really one correct answer, because masking effects, starting volume level, frequencies of interest, etc., all matter. I used to work on projects related to fish hearing, which is a fairly complex subject, but humans are much harder to quantify...what a surprise! The bottom line: it's not a linear relationship between perceived volume and power input, and diminishing returns assert themselves fairly quickly as you throw more money at the problem.

BTW: I almost always use higher gain settings at practices than at gigs, but I supect that's primarily a function of the acoustics of my rehearsal spaces, plus the fact that I use a DI at any loud gig. If I were Matt, I'd try at least one gig before I throw down. My gut feeling is that another cab is in order though. Maybe you can borrow something to act as insurance?

Sorry I missed you last weekend Charlie. Things didn't work out and it turns out for the better that I didn't go.

I hope you guys had fun!

No worries. We are playing the pre-show before ZZ Top at the same venue in two weeks. Come on out if you feel like it.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

I live to obfuscate.Invalid Link Removed

Does it hurt???

Hey, where'd the cow come from???

For some reason many of the the Australian sources I've seen tend to go with 6dB, and the vast majority of others seem to go with 10dB. The link I posted was referenced from the Rane website, but you'll find similar pages all over the web, from Prosoundweb to SynAudCon to the Acoustical Society Of America. There isn't really one correct answer, because masking effects, starting volume level, frequencies of interest, etc., all matter. I used to work on projects related to fish hearing, which is a fairly complex subject, but humans are much harder to quantify...what a surprise! The bottom line: it's not a linear relationship between perceived volume and power input, and diminishing returns assert themselves fairly quickly as you throw more money at the problem.

BTW: I almost always use higher gain settings at practices than at gigs, but I supect that's primarily a function of the acoustics of my rehearsal spaces, plus the fact that I use a DI at any loud gig. If I were Matt, I'd try at least one gig before I throw down. My gut feeling is that another cab is in order though. Maybe you can borrow something to act as insurance?

Not so simple to quantify I guess.

Good idea on borrowing a cab. I think that would be the best way for Matt to find out what he needs (GAS...wants...GAS)!!!!!

No worries. We are playing the pre-show before ZZ Top at the same venue in two weeks. Come on out if you feel like it.

Right now I am under doctors orders to not travel more than about 40 minutes but If I get this thing done by then I will be sure to check it out.



Joe.

 

[Matthew Bryson]

Thanks for all of the help and opinions. I understand that if I add a second 8 ohm cab, I'll then be running at 4 ohms with the two together and then my amp head will make the full 250 watts - I'm still no clear on one thing - At that point will each speaker cab be getting 250 watts delievered to it or will each cab be getting half of that?

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

if both speaker cabs are the same, then yes they split the power (125 watts each)

 

[Moo]

Thanks for the replies -



Yes, I had my gain cranked almost all the way up (about 9.5) and both pick ups & the tone knob on my bass wide open, master volume at 7 1/2 and they said later that I could have turned up more (these guys are loud)
I'm not exactly sure about the specs on my amp - I haven't been able to come up with an owners manual for it - it's a Trace Eliot from the 80's. I was told that it's 250 at 8 ohms and 350 at 4 ohms, but I'm not sure. At any rate, it's going to make more watts if I add another 8 ohm cab to my existing 8 ohm 210 cab.

I played an AH250 into a D210T for years, your D210XLT should be even louder. Some thoughts...

Is your preamp light occasionally going red when you play your hardest? If it isn't your signal is not strong enough from your bass.

I think a second cabinet will give you more volume than more power into the one cabinet. The volume increase from 250 to 500 watts is only 3db, the same increase you get from staying at 250 and doubling the cabinet. So theoretically a second cab plus the 4ohm watt increase will give you the most volume. Don't worry about the watt numbers being small, an AH250 will gladly drive 2 effecient cabs. Trace amps are under rated and my AH250 has about the same volume as my Eden 400.

You can use the EQ to squeeze more power out of the amp. Move all 11 sliders (or 12) of the EQ about a 3rd of the way up from flat and then kick in the EQ. Also the slider to the right of the EQ can be used to bring the EQ'ed volume up.

Another trick to squeeze more volume out of any amp is to roll off the EQ around 30-40 hertz. For many people the slight loss of thunder booty is worth the volume gain you achieve when you free the massive amounts of power those low tones take and give it to the rest of the frequencies. Toy around with boosting the 200 to 800 region as the added mids will help you cut through.

Oh, and if you use the pre shape button turn it off. Hope this helps.

 

[Moo]

At 8 ohms maybe you are putting out 150-175w. If you doubled that you would be twice as loud.

Nope, just 3db louder.

EDIT: Randy & Jack beat me to it

 

[Moo]

I used to work on projects related to fish hearing

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Invader.Gir]

Just the thought of having a tower that large makes me grin ear to ear.

I'm just waiting for Avatar to do their cabs in tolex pretty much as the chance of me finding a Sunn 4x10 is pretty much slim to none.

ask and u shall receive, well it's a start a 1x12 in red, i'm sure more to come

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-SB112-Bass-...oryZ4713QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[jake_tim]

i think you should just get another 2x10 or a 2x12 maybe and call it a day , haha, or tell them to turn their stuff down.

-Jake