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Do older basses sound significantly better?
- Thread starter Peter - Oregon
- Start date
I used to think there might be something to the "older wood instruments sound better" claim. Then I read reports describing the extremely carefully designed double-blind study conducted in Paris where Italian violins built in the 16th and 17th centuries (and worth millions of dollars) were compared to violins built by the best present-day violin luthiers.
Punch line: the violinists could not reliably tell the new violins from the old---and the violin most of the violinists picked as the one they'd most like to own (which they assumed was a Strativarius) had been built in 1980.
Maybe a properly set up 50-year-old solid-body bass can be more easily distinguished from an identical modern bass with identical electronics. How that would work, though, I don't know.
To those who believe it: avoid double-blind tests at all costs.
(Of course, there are plenty of counterpoint blog posts from violinists who objected to the results of the double-blind test. You can look them up, or you can just read posts from true believers in the thread you're currently reading.)
Double-Blind Violin Test: Can You Pick The Strad?
Punch line: the violinists could not reliably tell the new violins from the old---and the violin most of the violinists picked as the one they'd most like to own (which they assumed was a Strativarius) had been built in 1980.
Maybe a properly set up 50-year-old solid-body bass can be more easily distinguished from an identical modern bass with identical electronics. How that would work, though, I don't know.
To those who believe it: avoid double-blind tests at all costs.
(Of course, there are plenty of counterpoint blog posts from violinists who objected to the results of the double-blind test. You can look them up, or you can just read posts from true believers in the thread you're currently reading.)
Double-Blind Violin Test: Can You Pick The Strad?
Comparing any two basses from different eras tells you precisely nothing about the effect of time on tone. Both are made of unique pieces of wood, have been subjected to different environments over time, have pickups, pots and electronics with slightly different resistance, different strings, etc. It’s extremely difficult to do a true apples/apples blind test, to the point it may be practically impossible. I can say one thing with assurance: swapping a mahogany body for a rock maple one on my 86’ Steinberger XP-2, reusing neck, electronics, and all other parts, including strings, resulted in a 0% change in tone. A sample set of 1 signifying….nothing.
At least one major instrument builder (Yamaha) seems to think that it's relevant, from their page on their higher-end BBP instruments:
"Any bass benefits from being "played in," a process in which the instrument matures and opens up as the stresses between the wood and finish, neck and fingerboard, and body and hardware are released, resulting in better sound and playability.
Yamaha’s exclusive Initial Response Acceleration process releases those stresses by applying specific vibrations to the completed instrument as part of the crafting process, resulting in a “played in” bass from day one."
It may be partly exaggerated and a marketing ploy, but then again Yamaha knows a thing or two about musical instruments in general, and presumably has researched its benefits. Myself, I prefer non-vintage-looking instruments cause I'm overly concerned with clean aesthetics alongside tone/playability, but that's my own personal issue lol.
"Any bass benefits from being "played in," a process in which the instrument matures and opens up as the stresses between the wood and finish, neck and fingerboard, and body and hardware are released, resulting in better sound and playability.
Yamaha’s exclusive Initial Response Acceleration process releases those stresses by applying specific vibrations to the completed instrument as part of the crafting process, resulting in a “played in” bass from day one."
It may be partly exaggerated and a marketing ploy, but then again Yamaha knows a thing or two about musical instruments in general, and presumably has researched its benefits. Myself, I prefer non-vintage-looking instruments cause I'm overly concerned with clean aesthetics alongside tone/playability, but that's my own personal issue lol.
Similar story about Vintage wines a few years back. A group of wine “experts” was given a bunch of wines in no-label bottles, and predictably couldn’t tell the difference between high price wines and off the shelf swill. Interestingly, they liked almost any wine in an old bottle better, which only verifies that most “experts” are FOS. People hear, taste and feel with their eyes.
Whenever I look at Geddy Lee's bass book, I end up wondering how they sound and are to play.
Can someone explain how wood “dries out” when it’s covered in layers of paint? Especially polyurethane?
Burwabit
Likes guitars that tune good and firm feelin women
Hierarchy of best sounding bass
1) The bass I’m currently selling
2) 60s Fender
2) Sadowsky
3) 2020 AVRI
E) Sonic Blue/Daphne Fenders
6) previous bases I’ve solt
8( Yamaha PJ
9) tort with flats
10 all others
1) The bass I’m currently selling
2) 60s Fender
2) Sadowsky
3) 2020 AVRI
E) Sonic Blue/Daphne Fenders
6) previous bases I’ve solt
8( Yamaha PJ
9) tort with flats
10 all others
D
There are several differences between these two instruments that affects the tone CONSIDERABLY more than the rather subtle differences between old/new solid bodies. These two basses don't even share the same specs to begin with! Any old/new comparison is utterly pointless in this case. The '79 is significantly thinner in the lows/low mids and more aggressive in the high mids, as expected from 70s P-bass specs when compared to "modern", current production P-bass specs. And yes, 70s P-basses sounded like that when they were new as well. There's a reason why hardly anyone wanted them until they were suddenly considered "vintage".
A good, early 60s P-bass would be closer to most "modern" P-basses.Or to put it another way: These two instruments would sound very different even if the '79 came straight off the assembly line.
I'm not saying age doesn't influence the tone. But unless you can compare the SAME instrument, or at the very least instruments with the EXACT same specs, any old vs new comparisons are totally worthless.
IMO in old Fenders, it’s a case by case thing. Same thing with the newer Fenders. In general, I believe the more an instrument gets played, the better it sounds. And count me in on the neck having the most impact on the instrument’s sound, especially -acoustically. I also believe that passive pickups sound “sweeter” as they age.
I’ve played a few vintage 60’s pre-CBS Fender basses that sounded incredible. And I’ve played others that sounded ordinary. But even the ordinary sounding ones still sounded good to my ears.
In the early 80’s, late 60’s/early 70’s Fender P-Basses were my thing, mainly because they weren’t very expensive. And it was the same thing as the mid 60’s pre-CBS Fenders that I tried out. Some were incredible, some were ordinary, so I don’t believe a certain “vintage” is “better” overall from a tone standpoint.
I do believe that overall the pre-CBS Fenders had tighter neck pockets, and had better attention to detail when they were assembled.
However, the last 3 basses that I’ve bought were all bought new.
The bass on the far right was competed in late 2008. And I’ve played it for countless hours over those years. I know there’s no way to quantify it, but to me it’s sound has improved a bit since it was new. It definitely feels more resonant against my body, and when I play it unplugged in a quiet room, it resonates louder.
The U.S. and Euro Spectors both sound fantastic, straight out of their cases. I bought the Euro within the last 2 years, the U.S. I bought last Summer. Both of them are super loud unplugged, and their necks and body wings are very resonant.
I envision that they both will sound even better over time.
I’ve played a few vintage 60’s pre-CBS Fender basses that sounded incredible. And I’ve played others that sounded ordinary. But even the ordinary sounding ones still sounded good to my ears.
In the early 80’s, late 60’s/early 70’s Fender P-Basses were my thing, mainly because they weren’t very expensive. And it was the same thing as the mid 60’s pre-CBS Fenders that I tried out. Some were incredible, some were ordinary, so I don’t believe a certain “vintage” is “better” overall from a tone standpoint.
I do believe that overall the pre-CBS Fenders had tighter neck pockets, and had better attention to detail when they were assembled.
However, the last 3 basses that I’ve bought were all bought new.
The bass on the far right was competed in late 2008. And I’ve played it for countless hours over those years. I know there’s no way to quantify it, but to me it’s sound has improved a bit since it was new. It definitely feels more resonant against my body, and when I play it unplugged in a quiet room, it resonates louder.
The U.S. and Euro Spectors both sound fantastic, straight out of their cases. I bought the Euro within the last 2 years, the U.S. I bought last Summer. Both of them are super loud unplugged, and their necks and body wings are very resonant.
I envision that they both will sound even better over time.
D
Well, there's "old" and then there's "worn out".
I also think it's worth pointing out that the instrument most violinists picked was around 30 years old at the time of this blind test so very much "broken in" and more or less the same age as we refer to as "old" in the context of this thread. I doubt if any professional violinist would have picked a brand new violin in a double blind test. I might be wrong of course. I'm not a violinist.
Hi Peter 
Not that I know.
The oldest bass I have is a '73 Jazz Bass that I bought in '85.
I bought it because it was the best sounding bass in the shop
I tried more than a dozen J Basses and just as many P Basses that day.
All were used, many of them from the 70s but also some younger ones from the 80s
The best P Bass was a '80something Tokai Hard Puncher
(better than all the 70s Fender Ps!)
I still have and play the Jazz and of course it sounds better today, because I have become a better player!
I have other basses that i've played for more than 20 years.
They only sound better because I have become noticeably better!
Only stuff that is rare is really interesting for collectors
The first "x cent" stamp ever, is worth more than the "x cent" one you get in the post office.
Both can be used to send someone a postcard. Old stamps are still usable, post offices will accept them.
(same playability) And both say "x cent" (sounds like the same )
but there is only one, folks want to see in a museum and are willing to spend a fortune for.
Just like old stamps a lot of old rare and vintage instruments aren't played at all
because the were not bought for that.
greetings
Wise(b)ass
Not that I know.
The oldest bass I have is a '73 Jazz Bass that I bought in '85.
I bought it because it was the best sounding bass in the shop
I tried more than a dozen J Basses and just as many P Basses that day.
All were used, many of them from the 70s but also some younger ones from the 80s
The best P Bass was a '80something Tokai Hard Puncher
(better than all the 70s Fender Ps!)I still have and play the Jazz and of course it sounds better today, because I have become a better player!
I have other basses that i've played for more than 20 years.
They only sound better because I have become noticeably better!
Only stuff that is rare is really interesting for collectors
The first "x cent" stamp ever, is worth more than the "x cent" one you get in the post office.
Both can be used to send someone a postcard. Old stamps are still usable, post offices will accept them.
(same playability
) And both say "x cent" (sounds like the same )but there is only one, folks want to see in a museum and are willing to spend a fortune for.
Just like old stamps a lot of old rare and vintage instruments aren't played at all
because the were not bought for that.
greetings
Wise(b)ass
If you don’t use polyurethane, but nitro as Fender in the 50s and 60s, to make sure the wood doesn’t dry and doesn’t spread tons of vintage goodness over the decades, you simply drown the entire body into fullerplast to make lacquering the instrument easier. At least this is what Fender did with all their „air breathing, dried“ now vintage guitars and basses
With older instruments, it was more about the use of older mature and dried lumber that was being used.
I've read that some claim that the nitro finishes were thinner and allowed the wood to breathe but have no idea if this is true. My gut tells me that once you seal wood with any finish, it no longer "breathes".
D
I do not disagree with what you're saying but you're going a bit off topic IMO. Whether a vintage Fender is a superb instrument is a case by case thing, sure I agree 100% with that. But whether aging matters with solid body instruments is NOT a case by case thing. That's a more universal yes/no scenario. In my opinions it's a yes, but I find the overall differences VERY subtle compared to old vs new acoustic instruments, and even then it's hard to say for sure unless it's an instrument you've owned for decades and RECORDED the exact same instrument many years ago as a reference.
Hand winding changes things a bit, as the windings end up scrambled, which changes inter winding capacitance. You can, if you want, program a winder to replicate the effect of that, but have it far more consistent than you would get from hand winding. The best of both worlds, so to speak.
Finishes may make water bead up on them, but they do not stop water vapor from leaving. My basses all have polyurethane (not polyester) finishes, and they are lighter in the winter than in the summer. That means something is leaving the wood in winter (when it’s dry), and going back in during the summer (when it’s humid). If that isn’t water, I’m open to suggestions as to what you think is going in and out.
One other detail - most basses and guitars are not finished on the inside - control cavities and such. That means there are big “leaks” through the finish in those cases. Mine are sealed there, but they still gain and lose weight.
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