Do passive pups still sound passive w/ active electronics

[mettec]

I was wondering if most passive pickups still sound passive using active electronics (bass & treble controls)? I have always had basses with all passive pups and electronics or active pups and electronics but not passive pups with active electronics. Is there a major difference? Also, can you have a passive jazz neck pup and a active MM bridge pup?

 

[rumblinbass]

First you have to understand, there are active electronics and passive electronics. I believe there is such a thing as active pups but I have never heard of them being used in any electric bass. Active pups would mean that your pups are powered by a battery.

The only difference that I know of when using pups either with active or passive electronics is the number of windings.

Pups used with active electronics can have less windings because the signal is typically boosted. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but less windings means less output but more clarity.

Pups used with passive electronics typically have more windings becaue they need the extra output. There is a down side to more windings, I just can't remember what it is.

I don't see why you couldn't use pups meant for passive electronics with active electronics...you would just have to keep an ear out for distortion or overdriving something.Your signal would definitely be hot! I would however try to avoid mixing pups for passive and active electronics.

 

[mettec]

First you have to understand, there are active electronics and passive electronics. I believe there is such a thing as active pups but I have never heard of them being used in any electric bass. Active pups would mean that your pups are powered by a battery.

The only difference that I know of when using pups either with active or passive electronics is the number of windings.

Pups used with active electronics can have less windings because the signal is typically boosted. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but less windings means less output but more clarity.

Pups used with passive electronics typically have more windings becaue they need the extra output. There is a down side to more windings, I just can't remember what it is.

I don't see why you couldn't use pups meant for passive electronics with active electronics...you would just have to keep an ear out for distortion or overdriving something.Your signal would definitely be hot! I would however try to avoid mixing pups for passive and active electronics.

You are wrong! EMG, Barts, Basslines all make active pickups that require a battery and active circuitry for bass. goto Link Removed and you will see that they make different active pups as well as passive HZ pups. This still really did not answer my question. Does passive pickups still have that vintage tone with the exception of boosting/cutting of the bass and treble frequencies? Fenders Deluxe models use passive pups with active electronic. Are all pups that way or do different manufactures sound simular?

 

[Nedmundo]

Does passive pickups still have that vintage tone with the exception of boosting/cutting of the bass and treble frequencies?

In my limited experience, no, which is largely why I sold my '99 American Deluxe Precision. But I think this varies greatly depending on the preamp used. Some are relatively transparent by design, and could sound vintage with the right pickup, while others have an "agenda," and color the tone even with the EQ flat. I think the newer American Deluxe Jazz delivers a pretty impressive vintage-like Jazz tone -- at least in a band mix. As a general rule though, if I want vintage tone, it's all about passive electronics.

 

[rumblinbass]

You are wrong! EMG, Barts, Basslines all make active pickups that require a battery and active circuitry for bass. goto Link Removed and you will see that they make different active pups as well as passive HZ pups. This still really did not answer my question. Does passive pickups still have that vintage tone with the exception of boosting/cutting of the bass and treble frequencies? Fenders Deluxe models use passive pups with active electronic. Are all pups that way or do different manufactures sound simular?

I apologise for replying to your thread.

No, I am not wrong...I never said they don't exhist, I just said that I have not heard of them being used. An active pup in the true sense of the word would mean that it is an electro-magnet. That link you supplied did not convinve that they were active pups, all it did was tell me that they made pups to go with active and passive electronics.

The only way to go after the tone that you are looking for is to get pups and electronics that mimic those that produce the tone you want. This is expecially true for pups.

Again, I apologise for wasting your time.

edit:
I am sorry, I went off on a tangent while responding to your post and did not address your question.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Technically all pickups are passive and also active. Since all pickups are "electric" they don't do anything unless you plug them into an amp. The amp is what makes them active. Even something like an EMG has basically a passive pickup connected to a preamp inside the pickup shell.

Now of course the pickups we call "active" have the first stage of amplification right in the pickup. What this usually does is act as a buffer between the pickup and the rest of the circuit, such as (passive) volume and tone controls and your cable/amp.

Now the active stage does not need to be in the pickup itself. It can be in the instrument, such as the way Alembic does it.

Generally the difference in tone would be with an active stage in your bass, the passive high impedance pickup will sound brighter and deeper. This is not from EQ, although you can have active tone controls as part of the preamp, but the buffering causes you to have a wider frequency response because the pickup is not being loaded by the passive circuitry. Active pickups are already buffered, so you don't hear a big difference connecting them to another active stage, such as active tone controls.

You can get a buffered pickup to sound more like a passive setup by using a small value capacitor and a resistor to load the pickup the way a passive circuit would. The resistor would create a load while the cap would roll off some high end. It's because the buffer amp presents the pickup with a high impedance input that you get a brighter tone. If you make the input lower impedance, you get more of a "vintage" tone. This would have to be before the preamp. Some of Bartolini's preamps have this ability.

This all depends on the actual preamp in particular of course. But that's a generalization.

 

[bigd4207]

I apologise for replying to your thread.

No, I am not wrong...I never said they don't exhist, I just said that I have not heard of them being used. An active pup in the true sense of the word would mean that it is an electro-magnet. That link you supplied did not convinve that they were active pups, all it did was tell me that they made pups to go with active and passive electronics.

The only way to go after the tone that you are looking for is to get pups and electronics that mimic those that produce the tone you want. This is expecially true for pups.

Again, I apologise for wasting your time.

First, these active pickups you have never heard of being used are everyday. ESP, Ibanez, Spector...the list goes on. And, yes you ARE wrong. Active/passive has very little to do with the windings. Active means, the signal is boosted, via onboard preamp, or internal pickup preamp. Emg uses the latter, placing preamp circuits inside the pickups themselves. These are active pickups. You can have passive pups with active electronics, passive with passive electronics, active with passive elec., active with active elec., and finally passive pups with active elec. with active/passive switch. So in short, I think you need to do a little research.

 

[rumblinbass]

First, these active pickups you have never heard of being used are everyday. ESP, Ibanez, Spector...the list goes on. And, yes you ARE wrong. Active/passive has very little to do with the windings. Active means, the signal is boosted, via onboard preamp, or internal pickup preamp. Emg uses the latter, placing preamp circuits inside the pickups themselves. These are active pickups. You can have passive pups with active electronics, passive with passive electronics, active with passive elec., active with active elec., and finally passive pups with active elec. with active/passive switch. So in short, I think you need to do a little research.

You know what, I actually tried to respond to this but I just found myself repeating what I already said. You have either not read my posts or you have grossly mis-understood what I said. So, in short, you should actually read the posts and understand what is being said.

I know what an active pickup is. I know what a passive pickup is. I know what purpose of active electronics and the effect they have.

If you would like to respond then pm me.

 

[mettec]

I apologise for replying to your thread.

No, I am not wrong...I never said they don't exhist, I just said that I have not heard of them being used. An active pup in the true sense of the word would mean that it is an electro-magnet. That link you supplied did not convinve that they were active pups, all it did was tell me that they made pups to go with active and passive electronics.

The only way to go after the tone that you are looking for is to get pups and electronics that mimic those that produce the tone you want. This is expecially true for pups.

Again, I apologise for wasting your time.

edit:
I am sorry, I went off on a tangent while responding to your post and did not address your question.

Dude! If you never seen active pups on a bass then I apologise as well. This forum is for opinions of others and you are not wasting anyones time. Just some of the TB readers express their opinions as you have. Maybe we are not seeing your side or logic on this issue. Let's just see what other say.
Here is my reason...
If you have passive pickups (no pre-amp in the case) with active electronics (9v required) then why do some basses have a switch or pull pot to switch to passive mode in case the battery goes dead? I have EMG active pups with EMG active circuitry in my bass and if the battery goes dead I don't have any sound. If my pickups were passive then I would still get sound from my bass. Passive pickups and electronics don't need a battery to perform but active pickups and electronics do need a battery to perform. Someone correct me if I am wrong about this.

 

[rumblinbass]

Hold on a minute. Before I go any further let me just say that I am being misunderstood.

I have been playing bass for 10 years and am an electrical engineer. I know exactly what a pickup is, what it does, and I know what the active electronics do. I have studied Faraday's Law, the law that describes how a pickup works. I have studied electronics and have actually designed my own active electronics. So please, just hear me out and stop insulting me.

Active pickups consists of a passive pickup and external electronics. It is the external electronics that require power from the 9V battey in order to operate and pass the signal to the amplifier. It does not matter if the electronics are enlcosed within the pickup housing or in the bass body...it is still a magnetic pickup and external electronics, no matter how it is packaged.

When pickups themselves are referred to as active pickups, excluding the electronics, this is where we are having out miscommunication. Mettec, you are saying that your pickups do not work when the battery is dead. If your pickups are anything like what bigd4207 is talking about (preamp circuit inside the pickup housing) then I understand what is going on. The preamp circuit inside the pickup housing needs power to produce an output. It is still the classic passive pickup and external active electronics...just packaged differently. I am guessing that there is no switch to bypass the electronics when the battery is dead. Pretty clever too; this circuitry is most likely just a buffer, so the pickups are not being loaded not matter what electronics are used.

If a pickup by itself, excluding the electronics where-ever they may be, is referred to as active. Meaning that the magnet itself requires power in order to be a magnet, aka an electro-magnet. I have not heard of an electro-magnet being used as a pickup on an electric bass or guitar.

Active/passive has very little to do with the windings.

Actually, when active pickup systems were fairly new, I believe that the pickups had fewer windings. Since the electronics could boost the signal, the pickups did not need to have that much output. Fewer windings meant less output but also more clarity. Also note, I did not say that pickups meant for passive electronics could not be used with active electronics - I just meant that I would be wary of mixing pickups that were meant for different applications.

I hope this clears things up! Please don't attach me anymore, I have nothing to prove here. I have done my research on luthiery and bass constructions, magnetic pickup design and construction, electronics and electrical theory. I don't know everything (I will be the first person to ask questions), but the difference between passive and active pickups I know. So before you tell me I'm wrong or I need to do my research, let's try to understand what the other person is saying. This post is basically a repeat of what I have already said. I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

An active pup in the true sense of the word would mean that it is an electro-magnet.

No, no, no, no, no! No such thing! There is not a single pickup made with an electromagnet! It would produce a LOT of noise! The pickup coil would also pickup the current flowing through the electromagnet's coil.

Magnetic pickups operate by having a permanent magnet around which is a fine coil of copper magnet wire. Having an electromagnet wouldn't do anything different but produce a humming sound.

Active means you have a battery and circuits. Passive means you have no battteries. Active pickups are a normal passive type pickups that has a small battery operated preamp built in. The preamp let's you boost the signal, and also use less windings on the coil for a wider frequency range.

Examples of active pickups are EMG (not the Hi-Z models) and some Duncan and Bartolini's. Alembic basses also have active electronics, but the preamp is not inside the pickup... it's in the bass.

Active pickups will produce no sound without a battery.

From EMG's website:

What's an active pickup, and why would I use one?

An active pickup is one that uses electronics to improve the sound and enhance its operation. There are a variety of ways to "Activate" a pickup. A simple "buffer" pre-amp will do the trick, but it will also amplify the hum and buzz the pickup produces. Just because a pickup is "active" doesn't guarantee you'll get great results. EMG pickups utilize an internal pre-amp (inside the pickup), which not only makes the pickup louder, it also reduces the noise!

I also design and make active pickups.

 

[rumblinbass]

No, no, no, no, no! No such thing! There is not a single pickup made with an electromagnet! It would produce a LOT of noise! The pickup coil would also pickup the current flowing through the electromagnet's coil.

That is probably why I have not heard of them being used.

Active means you have a battery and circuits. Passive means you have no battteries. Active pickups are a normal passive type pickups that has a small battery operated preamp built in. The preamp let's you boost the signal, and also use less windings on the coil for a wider frequency range.

Exactly what I have been trying to say.

An active pickup is one that uses electronics to improve the sound and enhance its operation

...uses electronics. The electronics ACTIVATE and buffer the pickup. That just proves my point, the term active pickups refer to the pickups and the electronics as a whole.

we're just getting cought up in semantics here. From my backgound and my education, when somebody refers to an active pickup and speaking of just the pickup (excluding the electronics) it means to me that the magnet and coil require power...because the magnet and coil is the pickup.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

...uses electronics. The electronics ACTIVATE and buffer the pickup. That just proves my point, the term active pickups refer to the pickups and the electronics as a whole.

Yeah, you were doing good until you got to the electromagnet part.

we're just getting cought up in semantics here. From my backgound and my education, when somebody refers to an active pickup and speaking of just the pickup (excluding the electronics) it means to me that the magnet and coil require power...because the magnet and coil is the pickup.

The coil is the same as an inductor... inductors don't require power. Permanent magnets don't either. The magnet and coil are a generator of sorts. The strings disturb the magnetic field and produce a current to flow in the coil windings.

Really any pickup is part of an active system, since on their own they don't produce any sound. So your amplifier is part of the active signal chain. "Active" instruments just mean onboard electronics, and "active" pickups are just a variation of that idea.

So the term "active pickup" is more of a marketing thing.

You were also correct when you said that some active pickups have less windings. These would then be low impedance pickups, and the benefit of that is wider frequency response and cleaner sound. Alembic is an example of that, and I'm also making low impedance pickups.

Some active pickups are high impedance, as far as the number of winds on the coil, and then use a buffer system to render a low impedance output. These sound more like passive pickups, with enhanced top end. EMG's would fall into that category.

The problem with too many winds, as on a passive pickup, is with more winds you increase your output, but at the expense of highend. You begin to get a boost in the lows and mids as well. This is not to say it's a bad sound, we have all grown up on hearing passive pickups. But it's just a different way to do things. If you want maximum fidelity, low impedance is a way to go.

 

[rumblinbass]

Yeah, you were doing good until you got to the electromagnet part.

You're right. However my point was that the pickup (magnet and coil) do not need power, regardless of where the electronics are. If the magnet and coil needs power then it is an electro-magnet. When I first brought this up I made a point of saying that I have not heard of this being used anywhere, for reasons that you explained, and I was attached! Most likely because I was not understood.

Really any pickup is part of an active system, since on their own they don't produce any sound. So your amplifier is part of the active signal chain. "Active" instruments just mean onboard electronics, and "active" pickups are just a variation of that idea.

So the term "active pickup" is more of a marketing thing.

exactly!

You were also correct when you said that some active pickups have less windings. These would then be low impedance pickups, and the benefit of that is wider frequency response and cleaner sound. Alembic is an example of that, and I'm also making low impedance pickups.

Some active pickups are high impedance, as far as the number of winds on the coil, and then use a buffer system to render a low impedance output. These sound more like passive pickups, with enhanced top end. EMG's would fall into that category.

The problem with too many winds, as on a passive pickup, is with more winds you increase your output, but at the expense of highend. You begin to get a boost in the lows and mids as well. This is not to say it's a bad sound, we have all grown up on hearing passive pickups. But it's just a different way to do things. If you want maximum fidelity, low impedance is a way to go.

bigd4207...are you reading this?

Thank you DavidRavenMoon for taking the time to understand what I was trying to say (and doing a better job of explaining it ). It was just a misunderstanding. I also think a lot of people need to understand that the phrase active pickups is more of a marketing term.

 

[mettec]

Ok! Now that we have that out of our systems back to the original question. Say I have a Fender American Jazz Standard bass which will have 2 volume and 1 tone knob (This is what I mean by passive sounding) install and wire active circuitry (9V battery required) into the same pups and bass ,will the overall warmth and tone other then it having more volume and seperate bass/treble controls be simular sounding? The reason I am asking is that I want a vintage jazz sound on certain songs and a modern sound w/ bass and treble controls on others. Can this be accomplished and what recommendations can someone give. I hope this makes sense now.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Ok! Now that we have that out of our systems back to the original question. Say I have a Fender American Jazz Standard bass which will have 2 volume and 1 tone knob (This is what I mean by passive sounding) install and wire active circuitry (9V battery required) into the same pups and bass ,will the overall warmth and tone other then it having more volume and seperate bass/treble controls be simular sounding? The reason I am asking is that I want a vintage jazz sound on certain songs and a modern sound w/ bass and treble controls on others. Can this be accomplished and what recommendations can someone give. I hope this makes sense now.

Depending on the preamp, you will hear a higher top end, and a tighter bottom end. It wont take anything away, just widen things up a bit.

I have a 1972 Rick 4001 with a Hi-A (original name for Bartolini) and an old Gibson mudbucker. I added a FET buffer amp, an Alembic Stratoblaster clone. With the preamp engaged, the bass sounds deeper and higher, but still warm and fat. And the tone controls work as always because the buffer is after the controls.

Every preamp has a slightly different tone, and if you have active tone controls that gives you more options.

As an example... Marcus Miller added a Bartolini pre to his Jazz, and we all know how that sounds! (not the Fender version though!)

 

[bigd4207]

You're right. However my point was that the pickup (magnet and coil) do not need power, regardless of where the electronics are. If the magnet and coil needs power then it is an electro-magnet. When I first brought this up I made a point of saying that I have not heard of this being used anywhere, for reasons that you explained, and I was attached! Most likely because I was not understood.


exactly!


bigd4207...are you reading this?

Thank you DavidRavenMoon for taking the time to understand what I was trying to say (and doing a better job of explaining it ). It was just a misunderstanding. I also think a lot of people need to understand that the phrase active pickups is more of a marketing term.

First, as far as windings go, I was refering to the point of making something active. No matter what the windings, it CAN be active. And as far as the ACTIVE being a marketing thing, give it up. Take a passive pickup, and an active pickup, same brand, materials like the Emg hz, and a Emg cs active. There is a lot of difference. I realize this also includes a difference in winding, but that internal preamp makes a ton of difference. Take the hz, put it in a passive electronics bass, and then an active one. BIG difference. And as far as every system being active because of the amp, that is nonsense. So an acoustic is the only actual passive? Pshh. Most amps just take away or add volume to certain tones. Not curve the tones. Besides, active has always referred to as before the amp electronics, therfore changing the signal to the amp. The amp then in turn allows you to turn the VOLUME of certain tones down, haven't seen to many that allow you to sweep the frequencies.

 

[rumblinbass]

First, as far as windings go, I was refering to the point of making something active. No matter what the windings, it CAN be active. And as far as the ACTIVE being a marketing thing, give it up. Take a passive pickup, and an active pickup, same brand, materials like the Emg hz, and a Emg cs active. There is a lot of difference. I realize this also includes a difference in winding, but that internal preamp makes a ton of difference. Take the hz, put it in a passive electronics bass, and then an active one. BIG difference. And as far as every system being active because of the amp, that is nonsense. So an acoustic is the only actual passive? Pshh. Most amps just take away or add volume to certain tones. Not curve the tones. Besides, active has always referred to as before the amp electronics, therfore changing the signal to the amp. The amp then in turn allows you to turn the VOLUME of certain tones down, haven't seen to many that allow you to sweep the frequencies.

Ok, I thought we were done with this. Mettec actually wants his question answered so how about we let this thread go in the direction it's supposed to go in. If you want to continue to argue, then pm me.

Ok! Now that we have that out of our systems back to the original question. Say I have a Fender American Jazz Standard bass which will have 2 volume and 1 tone knob (This is what I mean by passive sounding) install and wire active circuitry (9V battery required) into the same pups and bass ,will the overall warmth and tone other then it having more volume and seperate bass/treble controls be simular sounding? The reason I am asking is that I want a vintage jazz sound on certain songs and a modern sound w/ bass and treble controls on others. Can this be accomplished and what recommendations can someone give. I hope this makes sense now.

As stated earlier in this thread, most active preamps have the ability to switch from active mode to passive mode. My suggestion would be pretty simple: when you want more of a vintage tone switch to passive, when you want more of a modern tone switch to active. Of course, on most preamps when you switch to passive mode you do not have any tone control.

 

[KJung]

Active pickups consists of a passive pickup and external electronics. It is the external electronics that require power from the 9V battey in order to operate and pass the signal to the amplifier. It does not matter if the electronics are enlcosed within the pickup housing or in the bass body...it is still a magnetic pickup and external electronics, no matter how it is packaged.

You are being too literal here. In the bass community, the term 'active pickup' has a generally understood meaning.... it is a pickup like an EMG or the Bart's that come standard in the USA MTD's, etc. that require a battery to work (i.e., as stated previously, they have a preamp built in as an integral part of their design). These pickups can be used with or without an additional 'active' preamp with tone controls, but no sound will come out of a bass with 'active' pickups when the battery is removed, and there is no way to use an 'active/passive' switching system that is common with 'passive pickups and an on-board preamp'.

The answer to the original question, if you have passive pickups (again, using the definition that 99% of the bass community understands) and an active on-board preamp with a true bypass switch (like the Pope circuit), then you can achieve a true passive sound. However, many preamps like the J Retro, seem to have some 'EQ' built into the circuit even when bypassed.

 

[rumblinbass]

You are being too literal here. In the bass community, the term 'active pickup' has a generally understood meaning.... it is a pickup like an EMG or the Bart's that come standard in the USA MTD's, etc. that require a battery to work (i.e., as stated previously, they have a preamp built in as an integral part of their design). These pickups can be used with or without an additional 'active' preamp with tone controls, but no sound will come out of a bass with 'active' pickups when the battery is removed, and there is no way to use an 'active/passive' switching system that is common with 'passive pickups and an on-board preamp'.

Ok, I agree that I am being too literal for the purposes of this thread. I do understand what the bass community means by the term "active pickups", but I also think that term is a bit misunderstood. Nevertheless...back to our regularly scheduled program...

The answer to the original question, if you have passive pickups (again, using the definition that 99% of the bass community understands) and an active on-board preamp with a true bypass switch (like the Pope circuit), then you can achieve a true passive sound. However, many preamps like the J Retro, seem to have some 'EQ' built into the circuit even when bypassed.

yes...that's exactly what I have been thinking.