Double Bass Do tape nylon strings have a better sustain than steel strings ?

[Lionel Albert]

Before buying my current strings, I asked my wife which type of strings she liked by showing her some reviews.
She liked the tape strings from La Bella, I liked a bit the Aquila set.
I told her they couldn't be bowed... And she said : "Why do you want to bow them ? Why do you want to bow them ? Are you serious ? It's ugly ! You are not made for that ! We don't care about the bow !"
I didn't want to put too much money so I bought those black tape strings from Pyramid.
The bad thing is that nobody, except myself and those who listen to their wife or wives, plays them.
I'm guilty, I didn't listen to her entirely since I didn't bought the La Bella set.

 

[Don Hergert]

For those of us who do not (or rarely) perform on stage with the bow, arco still dramatically helps with practicing intonation. It's very common to have someone use a bow during practice only, for that reason.

I've used tape wound and wrapped synthetics for most of my DB playing experience, but for the most part I was lucky enough to use strings that could be bowed. We're not talking about making a career with arco, but the strings would speak with the bow. The synthetic strings I'm using now are not wound or wrapped, and they also bow quite well. That satisfies my need to practice arco, but I rarely bow in public.

High tension metal strings tend to be thin compared to most synthetic strings which are quite fat. Thin strings require a different approach to fingerboard dressing than fat strings, so there is also a setup / luthier component with string selection. That is also important to keep in mind.

 

[Lionel Albert]

Just had a look that you are in France. (Now I understand why you initially wanted french strings.)
If you rather live a bit away from the coast humidity swings are not as extreme than in (parts of) the USA.
I'm in West-Germany, so climate should be not that much different.
Still wound gut can detune a lot (plain gut just a bit), but broken windings haven't happened for me.
There are cheaper gut options like the German Efrano and combining plain gut G and D with anything else below is popular too.

I liked Innovation Braided at home and acoustically only a lot, but in the last big band concert I hardly punched through with these older Braided strings. (My Polychrome prototypes that I preferred broke after some years.)
Steel core strings can be a lot harder to press down than your Pyramids, so have an eye on tension and (larger) diameter (of the higher strings mostly).

I still recommend used Spiros from the classifieds or French DB forums. Easy to resell if you don't like them. If you like them, you can get a new set later and know where you would get after the initial fight. And you have a spare set in case a string breaks.

Thanks, the Pyramids has got steel core, maybe the same than Spirocores because the set called "Gold" has got more tension than the black tapes, maybe the ones cold "Golf" are really steel core like the cables I had on my bass with 180mm-150mm string height.

 

[Lionel Albert]

For those of us who do not (or rarely) perform on stage with the bow, arco still dramatically helps with practicing intonation. It's very common to have someone use a bow during practice only, for that reason.

I've used tape wound and wrapped synthetics for most of my DB playing experience, but for the most part I was lucky enough to use strings that could be bowed. We're not talking about making a career with arco, but the strings would speak with the bow. The synthetic strings I'm using now are not wound or wrapped, and they also bow quite well. That satisfies my need to practice arco, but I rarely bow in public.

High tension metal strings tend to be thin compared to most synthetic strings which are quite fat. Thin strings require a different approach to fingerboard dressing than fat strings, so there is also a setup / luthier component with string selection. That is also important to keep in mind.

That's exactly what I do but it sounds like avant-garde music, some say I should use sandpaper to make them more bowable.
I won't do it.
I want to use a bit the bow in my playing, not a lot but a bit.
My wife said I was not made for that but this is what I was able to do a month after receiving the bass.
That wasn't so bad ! (Cables with 180mm-150mm action)


And I disagree about intonation, jazz pizzicato tends to make sound the strings sharper. It's my personal experience.
The bow just indicates where the notes are supposed to be (but they slightly can be in another places when you're plucking hard), that's the only advantage of working the intonation with the bow.
I feel the floor, the crowd is coming, the crowd is going to rumble and it's going to say in a lonely voice : "No ! You're wrong !"
That's what I expect but everyone has got different experience about that.

 

[Martin Beer]

I have a hunch that the Pyramid tapewounds might be a solid steel core rather than spiral or rope style. They're relatively inexpensive for a European made string, and they don't mention having a spiral/rope core, and a string in that price range would absolutely mention it as a selling point. That would also explain why you hear them going sharp when playing pizzicato - that effect is much stronger with solid core strings.

 

[Lionel Albert]

I have a hunch that the Pyramid tapewounds might be a solid steel core rather than spiral or rope style. They're relatively inexpensive for a European made string, and they don't mention having a spiral/rope core, and a string in that price range would absolutely mention it as a selling point. That would also explain why you hear them going sharp when playing pizzicato - that effect is much stronger with solid core strings.

Hi !
I don't know but the tension is very low.

 

[AGCurry]

And I disagree about intonation, jazz pizzicato tends to make sound the strings sharper. It's my personal experience.
The bow just indicates where the notes are supposed to be (but they slightly can be in another places when you're plucking hard), that's the only advantage of working the intonation with the bow.
I feel the floor, the crowd is coming, the crowd is going to rumble and it's going to say in a lonely voice : "No ! You're wrong !"
That's what I expect but everyone has got different experience about that.

Lionel, I don't think the crowd is going to speak in a LONELY voice, because there are quite a few of us. I'll start...

I played only pizz for 45 years, so I didn't know what I didn't know. Your remarks imply that you are in a similar situation.

It's not a matter of WHERE the notes are. When you are bowing, the notes can also be in "another places." Simply tuning open strings arco with an electronic tuner will demonstrate this fact.

It's a matter of HEARING PITCH. You can play scales pizzicato, and it will sound good, because the notes decay quickly. If you could somehow use exactly the same left-hand finger positions playing those scales with the bow, it's almost certain that it won't sound so right - not because the notes are in "another places," but because you are hearing pitch so much better. The bow exposes pitch much more audibly. So, even if you don't plan to play arco in performance, the question is: How close to "in tune" do you want to be?

 

[fdeck]

I think there are a couple more issues with pitch. In my own case, it seems easier to play pizz in tune than arco. But it doesn't mean I'm actually in tune. My son, a fine cellist, pointed out to me that the harmonics are important for our sense of pitch. And the bow brings out more of the harmonics.

Also, while I haven't analyzed it carefully, I'll bet that arco and pizz involve slightly different LH technique, primarily when it comes to shifting. These days I do most of my practicing with the bow, for a couple of reasons. First, my LH technique needs more improvement than my RH pizz. Second, I'm concerned about the long term effect of pizz playing on my RH finger joints. I don't practice "walking bass" at all, though that could change depending on my needs.

And it's remotely possible for the harmonics to disagree with the fundamental, in which case your strings are worn out.

 

[Lionel Albert]

Lionel, I don't think the crowd is going to speak in a LONELY voice, because there are quite a few of us. I'll start...

I played only pizz for 45 years, so I didn't know what I didn't know. Your remarks imply that you are in a similar situation.

It's not a matter of WHERE the notes are. When you are bowing, the notes can also be in "another places." Simply tuning open strings arco with an electronic tuner will demonstrate this fact.

It's a matter of HEARING PITCH. You can play scales pizzicato, and it will sound good, because the notes decay quickly. If you could somehow use exactly the same left-hand finger positions playing those scales with the bow, it's almost certain that it won't sound so right - not because the notes are in "another places," but because you are hearing pitch so much better. The bow exposes pitch much more audibly. So, even if you don't plan to play arco in performance, the question is: How close to "in tune" do you want to be?

Tuning is easier with the bow, with pizzicato, I play the 2nd harmonic (octave) because the tuner gets mad if I play the fundamental (1st harmonic).
Since the strings are "singing" even in pizzicato, I know they are different than when they are bowed.
The tuner says the same, it's sharper.

 

[Martin Beer]

Hi !
I don't know but the tension is very low.

Have a close look at the ball ends - on most steel core strings, it's the core material that forms the loop around the ball end. Does it look like a very fine spiral braid, or a single thicker strand of wire?
It's not impossible for solid core strings to be low tension, they're just stiffer for a given measured tension.

 

[Lionel Albert]

Have a close look at the ball ends - on most steel core strings, it's the core material that forms the loop around the ball end. Does it look like a very fine spiral braid, or a single thicker strand of wire?
It's not impossible for solid core strings to be low tension, they're just stiffer for a given measured tension.

I'm sorry, I don't know, I will see tomorrow.
That doesn't matter, they are flexible, it's the only thing I know.
Compared to Artino strings, they are flexible, I remember the two sets look like big bass guitar strings, steel core.
By the way they make wonderful electric guitar strings.
I don't think they make the effort to copy popular brands.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I only have experience with two types of Pyramid DB strings (and only high C).

Pyramid Gold (steel) is the highest tension string I ever had on my bass and extremely bright. Too short for my 4/4, but that's not a problem as I would never play it. Has a solid steel core like the discontinued early Präzision steel string. Very springy.

The other string is their best steel core string with a braided steel core made from four strands: Pyramid Soloflex. The tension is a lot lower, on the range of Spirocore Weich 4/4 (25 kp @ 105 cm), so I keep it for the S42W set as a suitable high C. But still a bit bright and the core is still a bit springy.
Never had the set below as I'm more into thicker and stretchier strings for the upper end.

Your Pyramid black tape wounds are in the 20 to 25 kp range. That's typical for gut sets and are at the lower end of (not only steel core) DB strings. You might find some solo steel core strings that have a similar tension.
Higher tension cut more into your LH fingers, so the thicker gut or synthetic core strings are easier to play (depends also on your string height above the fingerboard).

I'm afraid the Pyramid Solo has the same core as the Pyramid Gold (steel), so I would rather not recommend them to be used at orchestra pitch.

Try a used Spirocore S43 4/4 Solo set or an Evah Pirazzi or Obligato Solo set at orchestra pitch. Might be a bit low tension for bowing, but playable for what you are used to.
Anyway, gut sets are often in the same tension range.

The Pyramid Gold (gut) or Efrano Elite Medium set should work for you. The sustain of the wound E (and A) might be a bit shorter than you would like, but could be replaced by an Evah Pirazzi or Obligato Solo B and F# tuned at A and E. But you need to adapt to the different bowing of plain gut and metal wound strings with any combination.

In your situation I would try synthetic or low tension steel core strings first before trying any gut. Some use a gut G over metal wound lower strings (with different cores). You might want to try that before buying a complete gut set.

BTW, Presto Nylonwound (Eurosonic in the USA) are similar to your Pyramid Black Tape Wound in construction, but still hardly bowable.

For practicing bowing (not to be played to a public) you might want to check out @Don Hergert's combination.
What I tried with some rosin on A and E is plain gut (Efrano) G and D with Innovation Silver Slaps A and E. Better sustain on A and E than the wound Efrano A and E and with some rosin sticking to the string (string has a silky surface) bowable for practicing intonation and easy stuff.

Good luck with your string selection.

 

[Don Hergert]

For practicing bowing (not to be played to a public) you might want to check out @Don Hergert's combination.

Thanks for the mention...

While I am absolutely loving my very fat plain gut-like synthetic strings, they are extremely dark and old-school sounding, with fast decay. These attributes are all part of their appeal for me. Also, they are quite respectable for either pizz or arco.

But I would not recommend the strings I'm using to anyone who wants modern sounding strings and/or slow decay, both which it sounds like the OP is looking for. If arco also becomes a bigger piece of the puzzle for him, some of the lower tension Spiros or Spiro-like strings would probably be the best direction. There are lots of good choices in that arena, and it sounds like he has time to think about it for a while -- a slow and cautious jump into the DB string rabbit hole.

I've only been playing DB for going on 8 years now, and I've already used 5 different types of strings. I have heard of people using the same set of Spiros for nearly 50 years -- since they were released in 1957, it's very possible some double basses are even still wearing original Spiros from that time. It's hard to imagine playing a stringed instrument and never considering a change of strings, even for those of us who prefer the sound of old strings -- but I'm sure it happens with Spiros on a double bass.

 

[Lionel Albert]

OK ! I did what you said !

 

[Don Hergert]

Those sound great! (And nice playing too!) I can feel the ground shake, even through a headset. Must be Spiros? Which tension and string length? How do you like them?

 

[Lionel Albert]

Those sound great! (And nice playing too!) I can feel the ground shake, even through a headset. Must be Spiros? Which tension and string length? How do you like them?

Well, they can be bowed...

 

[Lionel Albert]

I have a hunch that the Pyramid tapewounds might be a solid steel core rather than spiral or rope style. They're relatively inexpensive for a European made string, and they don't mention having a spiral/rope core, and a string in that price range would absolutely mention it as a selling point. That would also explain why you hear them going sharp when playing pizzicato - that effect is much stronger with solid core strings.

Bingo !

 

[Lionel Albert]

Have a close look at the ball ends - on most steel core strings, it's the core material that forms the loop around the ball end. Does it look like a very fine spiral braid, or a single thicker strand of wire?
It's not impossible for solid core strings to be low tension, they're just stiffer for a given measured tension.

You were absolutely right !

 

[Lionel Albert]

Those sound great! (And nice playing too!) I can feel the ground shake, even through a headset. Must be Spiros? Which tension and string length? How do you like them?

Now I've got Spirocores, unfortunately I wasn't really awake when I played this but the sound is good.

 

[damonsmith]

The reason Spiros are the best we have is because every new string is a "retreat" from them. They need to work on retaining what is there to push forward. I wouldn't call them "hard" to control. You need to work on controlling the range of sound and overtones and once you all other strings will sound dead because they are deadened to one degree or another.