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Do we really need super powerful amps anymore?

Do we need super powerful amps these days if there's a good PA going?

  • Total voters
    219
A. D. Fairhurst

A. D. Fairhurst

Apr 19, 2015
1,604
1,319
25
Northwich, Cheshire, UK
#1
I was having a chat with my dad about amps and buying them with finance and was giving him a quick lesson in how Ampeg pretty much invented the big, badass bass amp and how I wanted to get one (a classic series SVT-CL to be precise) ASICAFF (as soon as I can apply for finance.) However, he came out with this comment: 'if you are in a place with a decent PA, like most places these days, do you even need a really powerful amp other than for your tone? You could mic up any size amp, really, and it would still sound loud enough.' I am still debating this in my head two days on. What do you think? Vote in the poll!
 
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#2
It depends... on music style and PA capability.

My experiences follows that of your dad...
I go DI to the PA from my 1000w SVT7-Pro, connected to a 900w 2x10 cab (so guitar player can hear it). It is not mic'ed..
70% of my gigs have house PA that we hook up to. Sometimes mixed from stage (via iPad) and sometimes mixed by house guy out front.
Same rig... I have done quite a few gigs with my practice rig - a 400w 1x12 Markbass 121CMD - that STILL went DI to PA.
For the average gig, 4x12 or 8x10 rigs with PA capability are serious overkill.

If you don't have full PA, or only put vox thru it and use backline only, then yeah, different situation.
 
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#3
You're in the UK right? What venues are you playing that have a PA decent enough to carry the whole band, and a sound engineer to keep it all together? Not on the pub or small club circuit that's for sure. If this sort of venue has any kind of PA at all (and that would probably be about 10% of them at best) they will probably only have a decrepit old mixer amp and some Chinese speakers that are about 20 years old and absolutely knackered.

Some larger venues might have better equipment, but these will probably be 'pay to play' type places.

If you are in a covers band, or a function or wedding band, the band will invariably be expected to provide their own PA and run their own sound. The only 'venue' that I can think of (outside of the pay to play type clubs) where a decent PA will be provided will be at local festivals; so the band invariably has to provide and run their own sound system.

I own and run ours. I have thousands of pounds in it, and still need a decent sub if I'm going to put bass and kick drum into the mix, so as a bass player you will almost certainly need a rig that can carry the room without PA support.

Your premise is right, that if the venue has a quality PA then your rig can just act as your monitor and let the PA do the heavy lifting, but I don't know where your dad gets the idea that quality PA exists in every venue.
 
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#4
Starting out? Larger amp gets my vote.

When the PA and/or operator is garbage or there is no PA, you do not blow up or hurt a smaller combo at a gig you got poor PA , the larger amp will simply be turned up. On gigs where the PA and operator are good, turn the stage amp down AND cut some lows out of it + slightly boost mids and highs. Sound guy will appreciate it a lot.
Below explains more.

If the PA is good AND the soundman is good, this small setup goes. The Line 6 BassPODXTLive in the pic has been replaced with a Line 6 HD500X. Either was always DI into the PA and no mic. This setup gets lows from PA and drummer's monitor and mids/highs from the Behringer Hartke clone I'm leaning on with the bass EQ'ed out of it.
GoodPAandGoodSoundmanRig.JPG


If I don't know the PA quality and/or do not trust the soundman, one of these go. All have the Line 6 feeding the DI and my stage amp. The rig with the 1x18 and 4x8 cabinet is a bi-amped rig pushed by Bugera's monster bass head. These started getting dragged around to "unknown venues" events after playing a show with a well-known Texas country artist on a great PA that had a rookie or wooden-eared operator. When we arrived, the headliner was soundchecking and the PA sounded like a cheap cardboard box with trash speakers in it. It WAS quality QSC gear being very poorly operated. Never again as I had to almost blow up my little Behringer to even hear myself and going wireless into the audience during our set showed me that there was ZERO bass in the PA. The soundman's accomplishment that night was making a very expensive & great PA sound like a loud AM radio in a car in the 1960's with cheap speakers.
DontTrustTheSoundmanRIg.jpg
FavoriteRigIfBoseIsBroke.JPG
OutdoorRigFXd 102508.JPG
 
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#5

If the venue (or performing act) has a capable system with subs, then I’d vote with Dad.

However, if the venue or act doesn’t, then you’ll need a stage rig. How big and powerful it needs to be depends on your circumstances – type of music, etc. For a high decibel metal band playing outdoors, it would need to be plenty big and powerful. If you’re playing in church, not so much.

It takes a pretty potent stage rig to match both the low-end and the output that PA subs have. That’s why I ditched my big stage rig over 10 years ago in favor of a rack that I can simply plug into a house system, but I do keep a small bass cabinet for situations where it’s called for. If you’re interested in the “whys and wherefores” and have some time, peruse the story at the “My Rig” link below. Everyone has their own ideas on this, and there are no wrong ones, but personally I want to get “my sound” from my bass, thus I want my electronics and cab to be as neutral as possible.

Alternately, you could have the best of both worlds by getting two smaller cabinets instead of one refrigerator-sized one – say a pair of 8-ohm 4 x 10s, or 2 x 12s (or 2 x10s or 1 x 12 if that’s more to your liking – there’s no reason to run the SVT at 2-ohms as it doesn’t put out any more power than it does at 4-ohms). You could break out the pair for the high-volume gigs, and go with a single cab for less demanding gigs. For gigs with a capable PA with subs you could leave the boxes and home and just run direct-out of the Ampeg. (Or does a tube head require a speaker? I know nothing of them.)

I’ll echo Johnny Crab’s comments on EQ when using a stage rig with a full PA: Kill the lows. I typically just use a small stage monitor with an 8” woofer in that situation – it has just enough low end to easily hear myself with it on a stool angled up at me; the “real” lows I can get from the house.

Johnny also has the right idea with a stage fan for outdoor gigs!
t.gif
I saw the coolest thing many years back – a guy that had a fan built into a monitor wedge. I’m sure it was custom-made; never seen anything like it since.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
Pedulla Club #45


 
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#8
In my opinion, going into debt for bass gear is ........ how do I say this nicely...... silly.

If you have to "apply for finance" you can't afford it. If you can't afford it, get something used/cheap and save up for your dream rig.

So, I dismiss the premise of the question before we even get to it.

That being said, it really all depends on what kind of situation you do/will gig in as to whether or not you need a big rig.
 
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#10
A. D. Fairhurst said:
I was having a chat with my dad about amps and buying them with finance and was giving him a quick lesson in how Ampeg pretty much invented the big, badass bass amp and how I wanted to get one (a classic series SVT-CL to be precise) ASICAFF (as soon as I can apply for finance.) However, he came out with this comment: 'if you are in a place with a decent PA, like most places these days, do you even need a really powerful amp other than for your tone? You could mic up any size amp, really, and it would still sound loud enough.' I am still debating this in my head two days on. What do you think? Vote in the poll!
Click to expand...
I think a decently-powered setup along with PA is enough. I must agree with Mr Blowhard, though. Going into debt as soon as you can is not a great idea. Trust us, many have probably been through it... I know I have.

To further expound upon my answer, however, a fridge would be a hassle. You could shoot for the smaller setups that are just as powerful. Technology has improved to the point where huge, bulky amps and cabs are no longer necessary.
 
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#11
two fingers said:
In my opinion, going into debt for bass gear is ........ how do I say this nicely...... silly.

If you have to "apply for finance" you can't afford it. If you can't afford it, get something used/cheap and save up for your dream rig.

So, I dismiss the premise of the question before we even get to it.

That being said, it really all depends on what kind of situation you do/will gig in as to whether or not you need a big rig.
Click to expand...

^^this!

It's not necessary for everyone but is for some (probably most) gigging bassists, if you need it or not, I wouldn't want to tell a band at an audition that I don't own a rig, might be a deal breaker.
 
#13
Bass guitar contains a lot of transient information, in order to reproduce the accurately and remain clean, you need a boat load of power. I am not talking about playing ear bleed loud, even at moderate volumes, power is your friend. Plenty of Class D amps out there that produce huge amounts of clean power without having lug around a boat anchor, like an SVT for example. My Genz Benz Shuttle 9 900w weighing 4.5lbs has provided many years of service..... love that thing.

In Ear Monitoring is great, I use that too, but you will not feel any low end from IEMs.

As far as financing equipment, well that's a personal choice. Having a great sounding amp is a requirement for a pro working bass player.

Plenty of places will let you pay it off interest free over a year or sometimes two. Its an investment in your career and personally, I can thing of few things that would be more worth spending beyond what you can layout in one lump sum. This is something that will serve you for many years and help your music career and make playing so much more rewarding. But that's just me. FWIW
 
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#16
Oh, I thought this thread would be about the gargantuan power amps from Lab Gruppen and Powersoft.

The Powersoft K20 puts out 125volts (8-ohm, 2700W/4-ohm, 5200W/2-ohm, 9000W). In a 27-lb package. THAT'S power. And they do it all day. I've seen them do it. With earplugs.

The Lab Gruppen has similar offerings in various 2-channel and 4-channel configurations.

Having said all that, I still find the Ampeg SVT to be most impressive in tone and sheer output power into the SVT 810 cabinet.
 
#18
Ya know what, every place I play has a pro PA and ever show I tell the soundman what I want in my monitors and guess what? It's almost never there! I have a big rig because that's the sound I want and so that I can hear myself on the stage cuz most soundman are morons in Detroit area. For this same reason my guitar player has a live cab on my side so I can hear him and I just added a second cab on his side. I try not to rely on these guys who can mix, we can't hear, show sucks. I want that vol behind me, that I can control
 
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