I think my dad was referring to big-name acts who pretty much always play in venues with a killer PA yet still use huge powerhouse amps. In terms of a smaller gig he would probably agree that a big amp helps massively.
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Do we really need super powerful amps anymore?
- Thread starter A. D. Fairhurst
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On the financing issue. I did GC financing for a bass i needed for a band im in now. I was broke and needed a 5er. Paid it off before interest kicked in.
On the amp issue. DI baby!
On the amp issue. DI baby!
I'm playing a large outdoor show today with a direct box and a markbass 2x10, because I blew some drivers in my mesa stack and am waiting for the replacements. I hope all that all the people who voted no are right, but generally I hate to put my trust in an unknown sound guy.
In theory, they're no longer essential. But in practice, they still have their place. Most 'soundmen' I've run into are fairly clueless when it comes to getting a good live mix. (Which is not the same thing as a good recording mix.) Especially where the bass is concerned. It's either total mud - or completely missing - more often than not.
YMMV.
YMMV.
In my experience "super powerful" generally means pre + power amp setup - and there is little relation between cost an power. The money is in the pre-amp.
My old rig was 1000W, at total cost of about $400 - cheap pedal pre feeding a QSC PLX1602.
Now I'm using the same power amp, but with a custom built preamp that I have about $200 into.
I voted yes, because I still appreciate the aesthetic of a gnarly rig behind the band. With that said, I will tell you that I have played shows using no more than an axfx processor and potentialy never sounded better. The only draw back to touring that way is that the club/festival better have a serious PA system and a halfway decent sound guy.
In that case, you may well find that the big name acts "huge powerhouse amps" are just for show - because with the PA systems that big name acts get to use there is no need for an amp at all...just a preamp pedal like a sansamp or similar going straight into the desk. Geddy Lee demonstrated this very well by having a joke backline consisting of washing machines or chicken rotisseries.
If big name acts powerhouse rigs are doing anything at all, they will just be for personal monitoring...but even then, personal monitoring is most likely done with in-ear-monitors, or pro level wedge monitors (like Martin Audio) that will be more than adequate for bass monitoring duties. Most sound engineers running big PA rigs will have separate desks running front of house and monitors, and their goal will be to keep the backline levels down to the bare minimum so that they can control the mix on stage, and in the auditorium, without a wash of backline noise spilling into it.
My garage band daze were in the late sixties.
Multiple, huge cabs were the norm.
Intellectually, I know we don't need that stuff 99% of the time.
Emotionally, I just can't get past a bass player with a rig that only comes up to his knees.
Here's a pic of me and the drummer loading in for a sock hop.
Multiple, huge cabs were the norm.
Intellectually, I know we don't need that stuff 99% of the time.
Emotionally, I just can't get past a bass player with a rig that only comes up to his knees.
Here's a pic of me and the drummer loading in for a sock hop.
The same thing has been happening to guitars as well. I see more 15w guitar amps than anything else now.
I'm doing a club gig tonight with no soundman. Decent sized PA, but the Lead Singer/BL doesn't really know how to run it. So, vox, guitars, and kick drum thru the PA. Me? Well, the Carvin MB115 with extension cab carrying the whole room and holding it's own....with headroom to spare.
...addendum....If I still had a fridge, I'd take it just to screw with people, though. we unload on a cement pad five feet from the "stage" area....
...addendum....If I still had a fridge, I'd take it just to screw with people, though. we unload on a cement pad five feet from the "stage" area....
Here in Atlanta, there seem to be either a) medium & larger venues with quality PA setups (moreso in recent years, if you remember Lenny's or the old Star Bar rig) and b) smaller venues with whatever they've got. There may be a couple hole-in-the-wall type bars or restaurants that put up bands without any real support and that are big enough to suck up the sound, but it'd take effort to find and gig at them.
(I'm thinking mostly inside the perimeter; I know when you get out to the burbs, you'll find big establishments that were opened up in 1961 and have only replaced the televisions since)
All to say, I've yet to find a place where more than about 1/3 of my 400W rig was necessary...or much more than that even allowed before having to turn down
(I'm thinking mostly inside the perimeter; I know when you get out to the burbs, you'll find big establishments that were opened up in 1961 and have only replaced the televisions since)
All to say, I've yet to find a place where more than about 1/3 of my 400W rig was necessary...or much more than that even allowed before having to turn down
On the other hand, I know a guitarist with a 180W amp that can probably be heard in Botswana when cranked up, and Common Nonsense dictates I find a way to keep up. Someone mentioned 9000W at 2 ohms?
As for the Ampeg SVT, the reason I like the thing isn't because it has enough power to bring down Mount Rushmore (I don't know about that, once I wanted to see how loud the thing would go, I quit before it maxed out because, well, it was too damn loud. And for a sound guy with a 20-year set of career ears, that's saying something).
I like the thing because of the way it sounds. The brute power of the thing is a side benefit.
I like the thing because of the way it sounds. The brute power of the thing is a side benefit.
I'm getting up in age (60) but definitely not bored. I can afford whatever gear I want/need so "cash to spare" is not an issue. I run a TC Electronics BG250 (250 watts, 15" speaker) on stage and either run the direct out to the board or through a $35 Behringer BDI21 to the board. Never had an issue making it sound great out front. I turn my stage amp up enough that it can be heard on stage and that's it. We always carry our own PA, smallish JBL stuff on poles with powered subs below. Plenty enough for all but the largest halls which we seldom play a place too large for what we have. We run our own sound, everyone uses small stage amps and IE monitors, we (try to) keep the stage volume down as much as possible and let the PA do the work. Sound on stage is vastly better, we can actually hear each other with everything going through the monitor buss to the IE's (which negates the necessity for loud stage amps anyway), and we're no longer destroying what hearing we have left just attempting to get a good sound or fill the venue with volume from the stage. And no more getting into an onstage keep-turning-it-up competition to be able to hear ourselves over each other.
I came up through the 70's and 80's playing in bands with huge loud stage rigs, big Ampeg V4B's, SVT's, Acoustic 370's etc. Lost most of my hearing doing that. When I see a band now with Marshall stacks etc I laugh because it is just SO UNNECESSARY. More for looks and posturing than sound IMO. The days of needing a big loud stage rig are long over. The tech, the equipment, the knowledge these days just does not require massive volume stage rigs to make the sound out front really good. In fact it's counter productive. The more you're in control of it on stage the easier it is to make it sound good out front, assuming a properly configured PA of course, which doesn't have to be massive either.
You guys wanna kill your backs hauling around huge stage amps, huge PA systems etc and blowing your your ear drums with huge loud amps go for it. I did it and at age 60 I now regret it. It's called working SMARTER, not HARDER. It works. Only took me around 40 years to figure it out...
s0c9
Supporting Member
I mentioned using one in my rig back in my first post in this thread.. yes, 1000w @ 4-Ohm into a 900w 4-Ohm 2x10.
I like the ampeg sound, but I don't have that rig for backline volume, it's for tone in the RARE situation where it's used as backline (twice last year).
I go DI to PA (99.999% of the time) PRE signal (vs POST) and let FOH create the bass tone for PA.. that same PA sound runs back into my IEM mix, so I can instantly determine if it's a good bass sound in the FOH mix or not...
As you mention GeriO - the power is a side benefit.
Thank you for your permission...
Okay, silly, self-indulgent snarkiness (auto-correct is killing me?!!on my part aside, I positively agree with everything you said. I'm 58 and fortunately, I went to work moving tuning pianos when I was 14 and so, I learned to move big heavy things with proper equipment and help. And when I was mixing sound, I avoided loud rock shows (mostly because I just didn't like the music and I was in the position to say "Sorry, get someone else for that gig") and on everything else, I wore earplugs unless my hands were on the console driving the mix. Other than my diet, I took care of myself and avoided all alcohol and most drugs (Pot helped me sleep, or so I thought. I finally admitted knowing better around 27) during my playing career and certainly my sound career My biggest health-related issue these days is playing sets that last much more than an hour. I have very flat feet and I have a heard time standing and playing for much more than an hour at a time.
And I shudder when I think about the 2 years I dragged around not one, but two SVT rigs back in the days of big clubs. However, we worked at holding down the stage volume even then, it was too easy to over-power the PAs we ran into. I finally pared down to one SVT, then a Peavey 2-18/10 cab with a Crown PSA2 and an Alembic preamp. Got rid of the cab and went with the single 18/2-10 cab. Quit playing at that point and now I have a very reasonable EBS Fafner amp (still friggin' heavy at 55lbs in the rack) and a Fafner NeoLine 410 cab. I have a Genz Benz 210 kickback amp for smaller gigs.
And these days, if I need more PA than I can get in my Nissan Armada, then someone else needs to provide it and run it.
Had the hearing checked 2 years ago. At the time, they remarked that my hearing shows the usual degradation from a guy my age (a smooth rolloff in the highs around 4K, not the jagged response that start a lot lower and degrades very quickly. So I think I did the right things.
These threads that begin with someone's musings over a broad range of things tend to get off into the weeds very quickly, as this one has done. When it's all said and done, we'll get the amp we want, if we even need an amp, and play our gigs. Right? RIGHT??...
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Off-topic, but you are absolutely right, Giz.
There's definitely some serious magic going on in the Powersoft K series of amplifiers. Lab Gruppens, too, maybe not quite as powerful, but quite impressive nonetheless.
