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Do you agree with this video?
- Thread starter Omiem
- Start date
Well I certainly know players who can PLAY great and sound amazing playing alone in a music store. But they don't sound good in a band because they can't groove, which probably comes from not listening. So I think you have to learn to play and learn how to apply your playing by listening.
Me again. I watched the video a second time and disagree that listening is like breathing. We can develop into better listeners as we learn what to listen for.
I think he's oversimplifying his argument, and thus, making it less valid. Sure, listening won't really make you a better player — playing will. But listening definitely will make you a better MUSICIAN, and we need those a lot more than we need people who are only good players. And listening isn't just something you turn on and off. You can work at becoming a better listener, which will definitely make you a better musician, and definitely make you someone that more people want to play with.
But isn't there a difference between listening and having an internal rhythm? Maybe the player in the music store just doesn't have a good internal rhythm?
I think Jeff Berlin is saying that we can develop into better listeners passively. To give an example, if we try to memorize major 7th inversion in all 12 keys, then we'll passively recognize the sound of the major 7th inversion after a certain amount of time. I don't think he's saying that any non-musician can automatically recognize, say, a minor 7th chord.
Listening for something is not changing your ability to listen, it is changing your ability to concentrate, and your experience in what information YOU need in order to play. Also, what you listen for is not the same as what another bassist might, but this does not make them a bad listener.
All Jeff is saying is that listening and concentrating on everyone else is not going to change the fact you don't know Csus4b9, or improve your technique.
Listening is listening, not magic. The problem is people don't do it because they are concentrating on their own short comings.
All Jeff is saying is that listening and concentrating on everyone else is not going to change the fact you don't know Csus4b9, or improve your technique.
Listening is listening, not magic. The problem is people don't do it because they are concentrating on their own short comings.
I agree with jonathanhuges. Listening, alone, won't make you a better player, but your ultimate goal as a musician is not to play scales without error. You will need to listen to be able to know how you fit in with the music.
I didn't practice scales and I never got a formal education in music, but I listened and worked on the things I could hear that were not working. It has worked for me for the past 25 years or so.
I didn't practice scales and I never got a formal education in music, but I listened and worked on the things I could hear that were not working. It has worked for me for the past 25 years or so.
Do you think that Jeff is also saying that we can concentrate more on listening once we master our own techniques and some level of music theory?
I respect Jeff Berlin, but I think he was too vague at the same time in this video.
Ric5
Inactive
- Jan 29, 2008
- 29,772
- 30,452
- Disclosures
- I like 5, 8, 10, and 12 string basses
I have trouble relating to Jeff Berlin ...
If what he says helps you then use it. If not then move on.
If what he says helps you then use it. If not then move on.
I agree with JB. As a pedagogical item, the admonition "listen" is pretty much a vacuous lesson. It's what you might call a non-information-bearing piece of advice that just restates something that's obvious and trivially inherent in the objective of making music.
That's, of course, apart from actual skills associated with listening like, for example, learning to intonate a fretless bass.
He's right that it's a given with making music and is useless as a lesson by itself.
LS
I think that is exactly what he was trying to say, though, I agree that he can be pretty vague.
He tends to over simplify and over elaborate, and generally loses people in the process.
Okay, this might be the answer I'm looking for. Just to clarify, are you saying that listening is only bad if a teacher provides it as a lesson, but it's okay if you incorporate listening in your practice routine? Sometimes I dedicate 15 minutes of my time on listening to intervals. Is that a good way to practice listening? Or do you think musicians will be able to develop a better ear passively?
What he is saying is this is not a lesson one should pay for & focus dedicating anytime to studying. It's a tip or a suggestion. If you practice & learn the right stuff your ears will grow, your brain will be smarter as well as your fingers & you will hear without having to make a concerted effort to do so. Some folks it is all to easy to sell snake oil to. Jeff likes to point out there were great musicians/players long before there where a great many silly things musicians think are important to make them better players that they pay for. His message is to focus on real musical information & you will be better if not great & be wise to the hocus pocus stuff being sold like a miracle diet.
That is a good way to practice listening and more effective than passive. Your way adds the physical element of fingering the intervals which will add to the mental and aural elements of memorization. Now instead of hearing an interval and just knowing the pitch or degree, you recall what to play.
This is much more useful to the instrumental application than just the empty knowledge of what pitch is heard.
In my opinion, passively listening and memorization of intervals without the technical application is a waste of time. What good is identifying a pitch or interval if you can't reproduce it?
Thanks for articulating Jeff's words for me. This might be a dumb question, but do you agree that a musician can passively develop a good ear? The reason I ask is because you lost me at the snake oil analogy.
it makes me furious how incorrect jeff usually is when he talks about stuff.
i acknowledge that he's an excellent player and his advice may have worked for him. however...
listening does not help our technical problems on the bass. okay. agreed. but a musician with technical problems who does listen is in a much better situation than someone without technical problems that does not listen...
and not to mention that nobody is recommending listening to help ones own specific problems.. those are things that are worked on separately. its MUSIC. one cannot have a conversation without listening closely to what other people are saying. you can't develop a good musical vocabulary and understanding without listening to lots of music, and you cant interact with musicians if your not giving most of your focus to listening.
i acknowledge that he's an excellent player and his advice may have worked for him. however...
listening does not help our technical problems on the bass. okay. agreed. but a musician with technical problems who does listen is in a much better situation than someone without technical problems that does not listen...
and not to mention that nobody is recommending listening to help ones own specific problems.. those are things that are worked on separately. its MUSIC. one cannot have a conversation without listening closely to what other people are saying. you can't develop a good musical vocabulary and understanding without listening to lots of music, and you cant interact with musicians if your not giving most of your focus to listening.
Yes & no it depends on what your ears are exposed to.
Snake Oil: Guitar store teachers sell it by the gallon.
I have had multiple former students of the Guitar Store Teacher Class sitting in front of me that where taught the silliest stuff & paid for it. Paid thousands for it & they still cant pick out simple triads, 7ths, read standard notation, know what a 1/4-1/8-1/16th note/beat are, but they listen, read TAB, Slap, POP & TAP real, real good. Now if they could just do it in key & in time.
Thanks for the feedback. I think the reason why Jeff Berlin didn't get many dislikes on his video is because he's a very good speaker and has the reputation of being one of the most respected bass players. Next time I'll try to be more critical when watching his or any other person's bass lesson videos.
Thanks for the advice.
Thank you for your help. I'll dedicate more time on ear training from now on.
