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Do you think that vinyl is making a comeback?

Not true. ADPCM is capable of producing an original electronic signal better than vinyl ONLY if the bit depth and sample rate are a lot higher than the CD standard of 16 bit, 44.1kHz. 16 bits leaves noticeable quantization error and limiting the sample rate to 44.1 kHz makes for truly horrendous aliasing. This is inherent to the CD format and even with dither and other digital "fixes" it still makes for a harsh and objectionable listening experience. Listen to Dark Side of the Moon on vinyl side by side with CD on a good sound system and nearly every listener will agree that the vinyl is "better" even if they can't describe why in technical terms.

Of course, if you're casually listening to music on a $19.95 MusicTron boom box from WalMart while talking to your freinds on the phone, then who gives crap if the cymbals all sound whooshy and the mids and lows are garbly from digital distortion? The fact that most consumers of music care more for conveniece than quallity means that even really obnoxious sounding formats such as MP3's are popular. People also spend $300 on an MP3 player because of the convenience and then spend $6 on earbuds that sound like dog snot.

Vinyl has it's own limitations, but for most audiophiles, the sound quality is far superior to CD and it's for quantifiable and objective reasons, not just snobbery.

PCM would be the superior format to vinyl once and for all if 24 bit, 96-192kHz were commercially available on a convenient digital format similar to CD's or MP3's. The technology and infrastructure is ready but the sad fact is that not enough people care about sound quality enough to buy them. DVD-audio and SACD's were light years better than CD's but they died from lack of interest. There is no reason that you can't play music on an iPod like device in a high quality format except that consumers would rather have 6,000 crappy quality songs on their music player than 60 awesome quality songs. Why? Convenience wins out over quality to the casual listener.

MP3's and other low quality digital formats are for casual listeners of music. This is the 90% of the listening public who think of music as backgorund noise to drive away what would otherwise be objectionable moments of silence in their daily lives. For people who are more passionate about music for its own sake, vinyl is the accepted standard for analog music, and we're still waiting for the music industry to make up its ******* mind about what high quality digital format to finally settle on.
Believe what you want.

The limitations inherent in the vinyl format:

* 50-60dB S/N ratio at best - noise through the entire spectrum, but particularly..
* Low frequency rumble, even on the most expensive turntable
* Distortion

Unless you have an absolutely perfect record and a perfect turntable, with a perfect stylus and a perfect set-up, the practical frequency top for vinyl is well under 16K, and high frequencies tend to distort more. High frequency and sibilance distortion is a huge problem inherent to the format, often introduced in the mastering stage due to the massive boost in high frequencies required by the RIAA curve.

When it comes down to reproducing a continuous electronic waveform, the limitations of vinyl are orders of magnitude worse than any theoretical on-paper "quantization error" or "horrendous aliasing" in standard CD grade PCM audio. "quantifiable and objective reasons" - I don't buy that for a second. Spend some time at www.audioasylum.com reading their discussions to see how "objective" so-called "audiophiles" typically are.

Believe whatever you want. Listen to what you like.

I actually have the MFSL Original Master Recording vinyl of DSOTM and a half-decent setup myself. It sounds great (better than most vinyl, which for the most part also sounds great) and is fun to spin for nostalgia's sake. However, the original 80s Japanese CD blows it out of the water.
 
Why didn't they just bring new CD's in album sized packaging? It would have satisified a lot of us that wanted the album packaging but the convenience of CDs.

A while back I visited my parents and out of curiosity I went to a coffee table (with compartment) that used to house my limited album collection. And there they all were in the exact condition of when I moved on to CDs in the 80's.

Only now I don't have a player...:scowl:
 
I always see alot of numbers from measurements and so on being thrown about. I really don't believe that sample rate, and wow and flutter and signal to noise...etc, etc, are the criteria for good sounding music.

I don't believe we as humans hear the same way a measuring instrument "hears". It comes down to the person that is listening. If vinyl sounds better to your ears...then it must be better. If the cd sounds better...then I guess digital is for you.

But I will tell you that I finally got my analogue rig setup a few weeks ago after going without due to a house fire, and I warmed up the system for about an hour...then I loaded the Speakers Corner pressing of Supertramps Crime of the Century. Sonic Bliss!!! I have a decent setup with SACD(not dead by the way as an earlier poster mentioned)DVD-A, CD and vinyl. No other format comes close to listening to that Supertramp record. Nothing! I do enjoy DVD-A as well as SACD. Just not as much as vinyl.

All the measuring of bits and bytes and the rest of it will not change what my ears hear.

Cheers,
BT
 
I always see alot of numbers from measurements and so on being thrown about. I really don't believe that sample rate, and wow and flutter and signal to noise...etc, etc, are the criteria for good sounding music.

I don't believe we as humans hear the same way a measuring instrument "hears". It comes down to the person that is listening. If vinyl sounds better to your ears...then it must be better. If the cd sounds better...then I guess digital is for you.

But I will tell you that I finally got my analogue rig setup a few weeks ago after going without due to a house fire, and I warmed up the system for about an hour...then I loaded the Speakers Corner pressing of Supertramps Crime of the Century. Sonic Bliss!!! I have a decent setup with SACD(not dead by the way as an earlier poster mentioned)DVD-A, CD and vinyl. No other format comes close to listening to that Supertramp record. Nothing! I do enjoy DVD-A as well as SACD. Just not as much as vinyl.

All the measuring of bits and bytes and the rest of it will not change what my ears hear.

Cheers,
BT
As much as audiophiles wax poetic about golden ears, the simple fact of the matter is that your speakers are reproducing an easily measured continuous electronic signal. CD is orders of magnitude more accurate to the originally recorded continuous electronic signal than vinyl is. People tend to develop a love afair with the gear that reproduces music that they love.

Accuracy to the source is how I set my personal standards. All else being equal, CD wins hands down.

Now, throw in some really bad mastering on most CDs these days and things get interesting. My record of Metallica's "RE-LOAD" sounds a million times better than the CD because it retains the dynamics. In that case, despite the limitations of the format, the vinyl is more accurate to the original waveform! Whod have thunk it.

And the real bottom line is with good recording and good mastering and good equipment for reproduction the difference between vinyl and CD is not very big (except that s/n on vinyl - absolutely SUCKS for classical music).

I still love my vinyl, but I have no romantic misconceptions about the quality of the sound I'm getting.
 
I doubt it will go away, but to me as an old fart (age 57) vinyl is a huge pain in the butt and not worth the trouble. you gotta consider that I was a DJ and lived with that format for years. CDs were a godsend as far as I'm concerned.

CDs sound just fine to me, and they have many advantages:
- much more resistant to damage from dust and dirt
- much more compact
- easily portable
- not as sensitive to heat warping
- not as susceptible to warping from physical factors
- they're not subject to damage from fingerprints/oils

I could go on further, but to me vinyl has ZERO advantages. I don't plan to buy another vinyl disc - ever. When I get a chance to transfer my 60's and 70's vinyl to CD, I'll get rid of the vinyl records afterwards.

For me, the convenience of CD/digital mediums trumps the dynamics of vinyl. I don't like clicks, pops, scratches... I don't spend much of any time just kicking back and listening to music anymore. Most of my listening is done in the car these days. I still have a lot of the vinyl I had as a kid- but I did replace a lot of it as soon as I discovered how awesome it was to use CDs.

Yes 12" artwork was so much better, yes, the dynamics are better. But not enough to justify the physical problems of dust and scratches and lack of portability.

For me anyway.

These are exactly the reasons why I prefer CDs, and I'll stick with CDs until there's some other tactile format that replaces it. Having a digital music collection is nice (and I will admit that my digital music collection is much larger than my CD collection), but if I like something I buy the CD. I like having a lossless medium that I can always rip to digital if need be, and especially artwork and liner notes that I can hold in my hand. And booklets are another big reason why I like CD over vinyl. Vinyl packaging and liner notes are CLUNKY and I hate having to slip out the plastic in order to see the inside of some of the covers. The CD booklet conveniently slips into and out of the case. Sure the artwork is bigger, but I've seen some really clever designs for CD artwork and booklets. And in theory, you can make CD artwork even longer than vinyl with a booklet that folds out.

The vinyl resurgence is a hipster fad along with Moleskine notebooks and ridiculously expensive Ed Hardy t-shirts. I don't think it will ever "go away" (nothing ever truly does), but it will eventually settle down to what it used to be like in the 90s. There may even be a regression since many working DJs, the people that probably give vinyl the most market, have been adopting vinyl simulation systems that are much more portable yet offer them some of the benefits of mixing and scratching on vinyl.

I still have vinyl and I will still get vinyl if it's the only format that I can get something in. With a lot of underground punk bands the only way to get some of their music (usually 7" singles) is through vinyl. However, I would rather get those songs through digital distribution and have my albums on CD.

On a sidenote, digital music has really changed how all of us listen to music, and has kind of made me a little bitter. I remember when all I could listen to was 10 CDs in a 3 month period and really appreciate the music, going into several repeat plays. But now I listen to a ton of music in a short period of time and it all starts to get old really fast. It's both an advantage and a disadvantage. How unfortunate. I remember when I got my first tape and my first CD, but my first mp3? Nope. Doesn't really spark a memory.

I'd love to see another format introduced that I can physically buy that gives superior sound quality, reliability, lovely album artwork etc all in one. Maybe I should keep dreaming?

It exists. It's called a CD. ;)
 
Travis-
Not only black vinyl, but green vinyl too.
Kustom.jpg
 
CD's reprsent a mature technology with some improvements such as CD-R and the ability to copy a CD to a compressed format such as MP3. CD's and personal computers work hand in glove. Recording and playback are now being done at higher bit depths and sampling rates, thus many problems with early recordings and players are moot.

SACD's had three strikes against them.

It looked like the format would require more expensive discs and playback equipment, or at the very least, replacement of existing gear. Strike One.

The technology had no credible advocate. Audiophiles have made a laughingstock of themselves by talking about magic wires, liquid nitrogen, and ephemeral effects. Engineers are not unanimously convinced that higher resolution on the storage format is beneficial. Strike Two.

The industry has tried to use every new format as a way to load DRM onto media, playback equipment, and our computers. Potential advocates were turned into adversaries. I know more than one person who said: "They are trying to sell us on a new format, just so we can't make copies, even for legal uses." Even the mere suspicion of DRM is enough to dampen enthusiasm. Strike Three, You're Out.

Meanwhile, the public is rapidly losing interest in any physical media, and there is no need for rigid format standards on the Internet. Game Over.

Is vinyl coming back? I think that independent bands should be interested in vinyl. It has a small but loyal following, and can't be copied without ceasing to be vinyl. A possible marketing formula might be to give away MP3 content for free, as a form of advertising, and sell vinyl online.
 
Is vinyl coming back? I think that independent bands should be interested in vinyl. It has a small but loyal following, and can't be copied without ceasing to be vinyl. A possible marketing formula might be to give away MP3 content for free, as a form of advertising, and sell vinyl online.

FYI - A lot of the new vinyl releases coming out include a one time use coupon to download the entire album digitally as well. I like that a lot - you get great artwork, a vinyl pressing, and a digital download for the price of what someone might pay Apple or Amazon for the entire download.
 
FYI - A lot of the new vinyl releases coming out include a one time use coupon to download the entire album digitally as well. I like that a lot - you get great artwork, a vinyl pressing, and a digital download for the price of what someone might pay Apple or Amazon for the entire download.


That is the best way of selling music I have ever herd of. I wish it were all like that.
 
FYI - A lot of the new vinyl releases coming out include a one time use coupon to download the entire album digitally as well. I like that a lot - you get great artwork, a vinyl pressing, and a digital download for the price of what someone might pay Apple or Amazon for the entire download.

Thumbs up!

Hopefully more bands will do it this way.
I just picked up some Weather Report, Rickie Lee Jones albums and the sound is amazing.
 
Accuracy to the source is how I set my personal standards. All else being equal, CD wins hands down.

Sorry...couldn't let this one pass.

There is no way on this earth that a cd can be more accurate in reproduction than an analogue source. No way...no how! It may seem to sound better than the analogue playback, due to any number of reasons....but not more accurate.

A digital recording means splitting the signal up into 1's & 0's to put it in layman's terms. The decoder then has to insert the missing information during playback that was removed during recording. That's the short explanation. If you want to say the digital sounds better than the analogue due to s/n ratio or whatever...fine. But to say digital is more accurate...is just plain wrong. It's impossible!

And just to add...I believe this is the reason people find digital sources to be tiring to the ears when listening for long periods of time to music. I also notice that digital playback at high volumes is very annoying after a short period of time as compared to listening to vinyl at the same level of volume or even louder...which I tend to do alot.

Cheers,
BT
 
The limitations inherent in the vinyl format:

* 50-60dB S/N ratio at best - noise through the entire spectrum, but particularly..
* Low frequency rumble, even on the most expensive turntable
* Distortion

Unless you have an absolutely perfect record and a perfect turntable, with a perfect stylus and a perfect set-up, the practical frequency top for vinyl is well under 16K, and high frequencies tend to distort more. High frequency and sibilance distortion is a huge problem inherent to the format, often introduced in the mastering stage due to the massive boost in high frequencies required by the RIAA curve.

When it comes down to reproducing a continuous electronic waveform, the limitations of vinyl are orders of magnitude worse than any theoretical on-paper "quantization error" or "horrendous aliasing" in standard CD grade PCM audio. "quantifiable and objective reasons" - I don't buy that for a second.



You can't use the same measurement standards to compare analog versus digital music because they simply aren't relevant to each other.

Signal to Noise ratio: for CD's it's 98 dB, while for LP's it's about 65 dB. On paper, a clear winner for CD's.

But what about analog studio master tapes using Dolby-A noise reduction? They are around 80 dB. They also suffer from wow and flutter and tape hiss. Does that mean that CD's are a lot better than the original studio master tapes that they're made from? Should studios be mastering directly to CD's rather than wasting their time with analog tape?


Frequency Response: For LP's it's about 30 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 3 dB. Below 30 Hz you have lots of distortion (low frequency rumble) while above 16 kHz there is a gradual drop off. With CD's on the other hand, the frequency response is theoretically linear from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, but that assumes that a perfect brick-wall anti-aliasing filter is used. In practice, compromises are unavoidable and there are many different ways of combining filters and oversampling techniques to partially make up for it. The result is still audible distortion in upper frequencies.

You dismiss these digital distortions as theoretical only and that there is no quantifiable and objective basis to think they make for objectionable music. There are ways of making a fair comparison. My friend's band has just finished recording an album and in a week or so I will have the original master in my possession as a 24 bit, 96 kHz wav file. If I take a short sound clip from that and then make a copy of it re-sampled and saved as CD quality 16 bit, 44.1 kHz then there will be a huge difference in sound quality. The original sounds pristine with no audible distortion. The CD quality copy sounds harsh with audible digital distortion.

Alternatively, If I take one of my LP's and record it into my dedicated recording computer at a similar "master" rate of 24 bit, 96 kHz wav file then take a short sound clip of that it will sound pretty much the same as the record - meaning it will suffer from the same distortions as the original with low frequency rumble and limited dynamic range.

But more importantly these analog distortions from the LP will sound very different from the digital distortions of the CD. Vinyl suffers from certain types of distortion while CD's suffer from another certain type of distortion, and the only way to really compare which sounds better (or worse) is with psycho-acoustic science experiments. These tend to be subjective in nature and, not surprisingly, people who were more familiar with records were less likely to notice analog distortion while people who were more familiar with CD's were less likely to notice digital distortion, even with low quality MP3's.
 
Feel free to believe whatever you want. Believing something does not make it so.

It's not so much what "I" believe...it's a fact. You can't claim that a format that misses part of the source everytime it switches between 1's & 0's is more accurate that a device that records a continuous signal of the source with no break.

I'm not debating which sounds better in the final playback in this instance....we're talking accuracy in recording....which is a different kettle of fish altogether.

Cheers,
BT
 
It's not so much what "I" believe...it's a fact. You can't claim that a format that misses part of the source everytime it switches between 1's & 0's is more accurate that a device that records a continuous signal of the source with no break.
Using that logic a micro-cassette recorder is capable of better quality than a pro-tools rig because it records continuously.
I'm not debating which sounds better in the final playback in this instance....we're talking accuracy in recording....which is a different kettle of fish altogether.
I'm talking about simply reproducing a continuous electronic waveform.

CD audio is capable of reproducing a continuous electronic waveform much closer to the original waveform from the soruce than phonograph record. Denying it doesn't make it not so.