Double Bass Does electric bass fingering work on double bass? No.

[damonsmith]

Ok,

What I'm reading is that Art is saying the FINGERING (1-2-3-4) and TECHNIQUE (pivots in the wrist) are two separate things. In Art's posts the actual hand shapes can be retained from EB with some work on physical technique. Damon is keeping the TECHNIQUE and FINGERING together as one system. I'm really beginning to see that there is a failure to communicate topped off with "mine is bigger than yours" debate.

Basically right. I still maintain that the string crossing from bass guitar is not going to get us the best sounding note for the line is most cases. Though in others it will be what gets the line played.

The other point of contention is the relative difficulty.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I still maintain that the string crossing from bass guitar is not going to get us the best sounding note for the line is most cases.

Please don't take this as an attack, but can you actually give any examples of a string crossing fingering on EB not being 'the best note for the line' in DB, or is this just a feeling you have? I suspect the latter, and not without reason. Using different fingering systems (like using 1-2-4DB and 1-2-3-4EB) will certainly make the lines feel naturally different due to the different physical patterns available.

The other point of contention is the relative difficulty.

I've already given examples of how it can be taught like any other system, and how beginner students progress just as fast as 1-2-4 students in the same circumstances. In my mind it is no more 'difficult' than 1-2-4, different, certainly, with positives and negatives, but not more 'difficult' relatively. Please, if you have some more information on this, let us all know.

I know that you started thus thread to warn EB players of the hazards of expecting their existing EB technique to work in DB, and that is a noble cause. Of course, I agree that DB technique is completely different. Yet I had, and still have, an issue with the blanket statement that electric bass FINGERING does not work on DB. Are you still adamant that it doesn't work? really?

 

[Art Vandelay]

Ok,

What I'm reading is that Art is saying the FINGERING (1-2-3-4) and TECHNIQUE (pivots in the wrist) are two separate things. In Art's posts the actual hand shapes can be retained from EB with some work on physical technique. Damon is keeping the TECHNIQUE and FINGERING together as one system. I'm really beginning to see that there is a failure to communicate topped off with "mine is bigger than yours" debate.

BINGO! Thank Jebus someone can see it. I only have an issue with the statement that EB fingerings don't work on DB, and that they are inherently an 'advanced' technique, and 'more difficult' than 1-2-4.

 

[Michael Case]

BINGO! Thank Jebus someone can see it. I only have an issue with the statement that EB fingerings font work on DB, and that they are inherently an 'advanced' technique, and 'more difficult' than 1-2-4.

I guess if someone was working from the ground up with a teacher that taught that system it wouldn't be that difficult. As for some specifically searching out a teacher that taught the 1-2-3-4 fingering system to retain EB fingering on the DB, I think that's a bit of reaching on Damon's part.

 

[damonsmith]

BINGO! Thank Jebus someone can see it. I only have an issue with the statement that EB fingerings don't work on DB, and that they are inherently an 'advanced' technique, and 'more difficult' than 1-2-4.

And you are dead wrong on both counts! BTW, I take all your posts as well as your membership under this name as attacks, However, I can take it.

 

[Art Vandelay]

And you are dead wrong on both counts! BTW, I take all your posts as well as your membership under this name as attacks, However, I can take it.

I accept that you think I'm wrong, and maybe I am. I'm just calling it as I see it. I promise I've never engaged with you before on talkbass. You don't know me from anywhere(on or offline) I promise!

 

[ChuckCorbis]

The above exchanges between the 2 Presidential canidates reflect a prior relationship. What is going on here? Reminds me of high school days, when you would go to the mall with your new girlfriend and your X who was her best friend comes over to say hello. Then when she leaves your all, "What did she just say". And a MASSIVE fight would ensue.

 

[Art Vandelay]

CATFIGHT!!!!!!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I accept that you think I'm wrong, and maybe I am. I'm just calling it as I see it. I promise I've never engaged with you before on talkbass.

Having done the footwork to check this out, I can verify this. Damon, you can suspect there are black helicopters flying around privately all you want, but this member - who chooses to remain anonymous, as allowed by Paul - is not who you suspect he is. Please refrain from further insinuations about this matter on the board.

 

[Art Vandelay]

So, to sum up, EB technique is not the same as DB technique, and really doesn't work on DB. 1-2-3-4 (EB) FINGERINGS can work on double bass. It is usually taught as an 'extra' technique in a 1-2-4 system (usually taught at an advanced stage).

1-2-3-4 is also taught as the basis of a DB method, from the ground up, and while a teacher is relatively very hard to find, and are mostly classical teachers, those that study this method seem to be doing at least as well as those going through a 1-2-4 system.

 

[damonsmith]

So, to sum up, EB technique is not the same as DB technique, and really doesn't work on DB. 1-2-3-4 (EB) FINGERINGS can work on double bass. It is usually taught as an 'extra' technique in a 1-2-4 system (usually taught at an advanced stage).

1-2-3-4 is also taught as the basis of a DB method, from the ground up, and while a teacher is relatively very hard to find, and are mostly classical teachers, those that study this method seem to be doing at least as well as those going through a 1-2-4 system.

Basically agree, but it still only seems to be working in classical settings and the long term physical effects are unknown.

 

[Art Vandelay]

it still only seems to be working in classical settings and the long term physical effects are unknown.

It's only taught in classical settings (to my knowledge), but there are jazz players who use 4 finger DB technique, so I don't see much of an issue with this one.

As for long term effects, it's been around for 20-30 years. That's long enough in my view for any long-term effects of exposure to using the dreaded 3rd finger in lower positions to show up. So far, no signs of any untoward physical strain, pink-eye, or radiation burns. Some mild liver damage, but this may due to the players' fondness of booze.

 

[onosson]

This thread is absolutely amazing!

 

[damonsmith]

It's only taught in classical settings (to my knowledge), but there are jazz players who use 4 finger DB technique, so I don't see much of an issue with this one.

As for long term effects, it's been around for 20-30 years. That's long enough in my view for any long-term effects of exposure to using the dreaded 3rd finger in lower positions to show up. So far, no signs of any untoward physical strain, pink-eye, or radiation burns. Some mild liver damage, but this may due to the players' fondness of booze.

Well, more movement in the hand is more movement in the hand. I don't think enough have been doing it that long to really see. As someone who can make it work - it is easier on the hands to shift.

 

[damonsmith]

I think the biggest issue I have with you four finger zealots is presenting it as if there are no issues with it, and that 1-2-4 or 1-3-4 was just done because people were stupid. It was adopted for a reason and I think that it is still more sure and works better for most situations.

1-2-3-4 is possible, so are tons of things - not just on the bass but in life, but it is not the most sure. I think it is less stable, and best to have a number of different fingerings at your disposal - another reason to forget about the bass guitar and it's "patterns".

 

[MR PC]

Congratulations, guys, according to the laws of Male Bathroom Etiquette (MBR), you've now scared off anyone else who might want to contribute for fear of splashing. Remember: always use the urinals as far as possible from each other.

Please. So let's not move onto the #2 fellas. What he said.

 

[damonsmith]

Please. So let's not move onto the #2 fellas. What he said.

The thread went to #2 weeks ago.

 

[Art Vandelay]

As someone who can make it work - it is easier on the hands to shift.

Are you saying that you've studied 1-2-3-4 in a 'from the ground up' way, like I'm talking about? If not, how can you possibly make that statement?

I would have thought moving less is easier on the body than moving more, but I may be wrong. Maybe more shifts are better. Maybe the easiest way to get around the bass with the LH is actually by just using the good ol' "fisticuffs" method. That way of playing was around for many, many years, so it must be super-extra-stable. Right?

Wrong. The argument legitimacy or effectiveness being linked to popularity or longevity is nonsense. Less popular does not make 1-2-3-4 any more or less legitimate. For 1-2-4, being more popular doesn't make it any better or worse. They both work. They are just different.

You call me a zealot, yet I am not dismissive of 1-2-4, I play 1-2-4 (even though you seem to prefer that I didn't). I'm not fanatical about 1-2-3-4, I just think it's interesting that it's possible for many reasons. I'm not fanatical with regards to 1-2-4 or 1-2-3-4 (EB). I recognize the merits of both systems. All I'm doing is standing against your uncompromising and exclusive title, and opinion, that 1-2-3-4 (EB fingering) does not 'work' on DB.

 

[damonsmith]

Electric bass fingering does not and will never work on double bass. The current standard of three notes & two half steps in the hand is a standard for good and clear reasons.
Since human achievement knows no bounds a few classical players are making 1-2-3-4 work with stretching and pivoting.
Exploring these techniques to expand your ability to play the instrument is a great idea. They will not make transitioning to the double any less work.

 

[MR PC]

That's good for now, Damon......until the few inevitably become the many.