Double Bass Does electric bass fingering work on double bass? No.

[ChuckCorbis]

Maybe the term 'system' is confusing- i cant think of a better word- When I say one 'system' I mean that in one position, the same notes relationships are retained throughout the fingerboard - four semitones for the whole fingerboard, instead of three for the lower half, four for thumb position.

In lower positions the semitones are achieved as I described, I've seen it demonstrated and working with shocking fluidity. It is slightly less graceful in half position, IMO, but it's possible.

I got it. Thanks.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Again:

Good to see you're responding to the points, and keeping an open mind. I think this conversation between you and I is over, seems as you're no longer even bothering to respond.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Congratulations, guys, according to the laws of Male Bathroom Etiquette (MBR), you've now scared off anyone else who might want to contribute for fear of splashing. Remember: always use the urinals as far as possible from each other.

 

[damonsmith]

Good to see you're responding to the points, and keeping an open mind. I think this conversation between you and I is over, seems as you're no longer even bothering to respond.

Listen Pal, 1-2-3-4 is not the standard, not now, not for a longtime. There are tons of reasons why it hasn't been.
There are reasons why it has been dismissed over the last few hundred years.
There are issues with it.
Simandl, Billie, Rabbath and the thousands of other bassists who have decided against using it are not idiots that "didn't know any better".
Just because a select few are getting it to work doesn't mean it is just as easy as 1-2-4.
I believe it takes way more effort - and is way less possible and no matter what you say - way more advanced.
You can keep pretending that it is normal and easy but that is just not situation.
Whatever information it may or may not retain from bass guitar will not matter in the least by the time a person has a working four finger system on double bass.

You are clouding the issue, giving false hopes and not adding to the discussion. Please stop.

 

[Michael Case]

I dont think the learning curve would be any different from a 1-2-4 approach. They are certainly different beasts, but with the same tuning and if you were to use the same fingering, therefore same patterns, I can't see how the thinking WOULDN'T transfer!



I hear you. Do you think that the main reason for that is the different fingering systems? With a 1-2-4 DB and 1-2-3-4 EB, I suppose one system is difficult to apply to the other, because physically the notes are in different places - on EB between 2 and 4 is a tone, on DB a semitone.

First, I think the learning curve is still a big one. Tuning aside, the DB is vertical, the EB is horizontal. The DB four finger technique (at least as I read it) is very different from EB four finger technique. The EB in most cases is a fretted instrument and intonation is a given. My DB is is about 41 1/2" string length, EB 34". That is a lot of extra ground to cover. When I picked up DB I thought "oh I could just use the same fingering as the electric." WRONG! That was not the case AT ALL. The work needed to learn 1-2-4 is probably much less than 1-2-3-4 on DB. The idea of having to pivot my wrist to play with four fingers seems like as much work as 1-2-4 from scratch. Let's not forget the frustration a student can face trying to learn the DB approaching like the EB. Honestly, thinking of it as a new instrument is best IMHO.

Yes the distance between notes is different on the two instruments. I can play a minor third with 1 on the root and 4 on the third on EB and the hand shape is close to a whole step on the DB.

Another thought, When I played EB only, I started to fall into playing patterns instead of music. Learning the DB helped free my approach to the EB as well. While I still find patterns useful I am now using my ear and playing more musically on both instruments.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

You also don't have to be as accurate on fretted bass guitar as there is quite a bit of wiggle room between frets. I don't think I would ever be able to develop the independence and strength (let alone the stretch) in my 3rd and 4th fingers to use them on DB as I would on BG (as I do) in a hard driving jazz context. Not talking about thumb position either.

 

[damonsmith]

Human achievement knows no bounds and youtube is full of results of it. For example, I was only ever able to do four or five of these:
Kevin Jones 52 whilplashes - YouTube
He makes it look easy, and the kids have pushed it way farther than that. Still, it is in no way the norm for bicycling!

Presenting the edge of what is possible as a practical recommendation for someone struggling with the instrument is a real disservice.
Until you reveal yourself as a real person playing 1-2-4, I am going to file you as a four-finger zealot ready to fight the good fight.
You just won't get a concession from me regarding the relationship to bass guitar or wider practicality.

 

[Art Vandelay]

First, I think the learning curve is still a big one. Tuning aside, the DB is vertical, the EB is horizontal. The DB four finger technique (at least as I read it) is very different from EB four finger technique. The EB in most cases is a fretted instrument and intonation is a given. My DB is is about 41 1/2" string length, EB 34". That is a lot of extra ground to cover. When I picked up DB I thought "oh I could just use the same fingering as the electric." WRONG! That was not the case AT ALL. The work needed to learn 1-2-4 is probably much less than 1-2-3-4 on DB. The idea of having to pivot my wrist to play with four fingers seems like as much work as 1-2-4 from scratch. Let's not forget the frustration a student can face trying to learn the DB approaching like the EB. Honestly, thinking of it as a new instrument is best IMHO.

Yes the distance between notes is different on the two instruments. I can play a minor third with 1 on the root and 4 on the third on EB and the hand shape is close to a whole step on the DB.

Another thought, When I played EB only, I started to fall into playing patterns instead of music. Learning the DB helped free my approach to the EB as well. While I still find patterns useful I am now using my ear and playing more musically on both instruments.

I'm not saying that any EB technique will work on DB, nor am I saying that an EB 'approach' will work. I'm just saying the fingering 'system' (not technique) can be the same.

Beginners using 1-2-3-4, advance through the same exams at the same pace as 1-2-4 students, so in my opinion that's evidence that it's not any more work than 1-2-4, just a different way of fingering, with positives and negatives.

I think you might be right when you say 'The idea of having to pivot my wrist to play with four fingers seems like as much work as 1-2-4 from scratch', because it's such a different technique in so many ways. I do feel that as the basic technique of 1-2-3-4 DB progresses that mentally the fingerings would merge, and it would be a positive rather than a negative having the same fingerings on both instruments.

I agree that learning 2 instruments with different systems (which 1-2-4 DB and 1-2-3-4 EB certainly are!) makes us think of music in different ways, which is a good thing like you say, so there are arguments either way on that subject, certainly. I still think its valid to point out that EB fingerings can work on DB. Technique? No. Fingerings? Possible.

 

[Art Vandelay]

... I don't think I would ever be able to develop the independence and strength (let alone the stretch) in my 3rd and 4th fingers to use them on DB as I would on BG (as I do) in a hard driving jazz context. Not talking about thumb position either.

I've played classical and jazz (lots of jazz gigs, but not at a very high standard) and never felt the LH needed to press more than classical.. In my view the string needs to be firmly held for both, which is the same pressure, but maybe I'm missing something?

As for finger strength, the 3rd finger often needs strengthening when playing in thumb position, (mine certainly did) and I'd imagine as the string requires more pressure in higher positions than lower, that no additional strengthening would be needed for lower positions.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

?

As for finger strength, the 3rd finger often needs strengthening when playing in thumb position, (mine certainly did) and I'd imagine as the string requires more pressure in higher positions than lower, that no additional strengthening would be needed for lower positions.

In thumb position you are playing at more of a downward angle making arm weight a bigger part of the mix. The distance between notes is much shorter making the transitions much easier. It's a totally different feeling, for me at least, but of course I have never used 1234 on DB.

 

[Art Vandelay]

In thumb position you are playing at more of a downward angle making arm weight a bigger part of the mix. The distance between notes is much shorter making the transitions much easier. It's a totally different feeling, for me at least, but of course I have never used 1234 on DB.

I suppose it depends on all the variables of the angle of the bass, if you sit or stand, the size of the shoulders...the list goes on... I also found that the weight of the arm in thumb position can actually be a problem, that the finger 'buckles' under the weight.

It's certainly a different feeling, and different techniques in many, many ways.

Ps Eric - which CDs are you on with Kurt Elling? So cool! I'm a big fan!

 

[damonsmith]

Beginners using 1-2-3-4, advance through the same exams at the same pace as 1-2-4 students, so in my opinion that's evidence that it's not any more work than 1-2-4, just a different way of fingering, with positives and negatives.

No, it is evidence that when it works it works for those with a rigorous practice schedule.

I've played classical and jazz (lots of jazz gigs, but not at a very high standard) and never felt the LH needed to press more than classical.. In my view the string needs to be firmly held for both, which is the same pressure, but maybe I'm missing something?

You can get by with a much lighter coupling with the string arco than for a full, unamplified jazz sound. Repeating figures are also less comfortable with pivots.

I'm not saying that any EB technique will work on DB, nor am I saying that an EB 'approach' will work. I'm just saying the fingering 'system' (not technique) can be the same.

Right, covered in the first post. You have still not added anything to the discussion.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Ps Eric - which CDs are you on with Kurt Elling? So cool! I'm a big fan!

"Close Your Eyes" and "The Messenger"

 

[Art Vandelay]

I've found there are gradations of LH pressure which will work when playing with the bow. IMO the firmer the pressure, the better the sound. There then comes a point where no matter how much more LH pressure you play with, it won't change the sound any more. This is the kind of pressure I personally use all the time with classical playing, but others may use a different approach.

This pressure seemed to hold up just fine when playing acoustic jazz gigs..

 

[Art Vandelay]

You have still not added anything to the discussion.

Ok. If that's what you think, that's cool man.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I find that up to a point, the left hand stop required for jazz pizz playing is a bit of a different animal than is required for arco, as Damon says. A good friend and colleague who is a wonderful arco player has confirmed this in the past; without the bow to activate the string, a full stop becomes paramount.

Tips versus pads is another tonal issue involving amount of force required, and in the end I would say that the biggest difference between BG and DB left hand technique comes down to how the force tot stop the string is generated. For BG and guitar family instruments, the force is commonly generated by extending and locking out the thumb on the back of the neck and then pivoting around this with the wrist so that the thumb becomes almost like a fulcrum - at least, that was the way I usually used and taught it, and how it was presented to me in my days as a classical guitar student. For DB, on the other hand, it is not the thumb but the weight of the arm that has to be leveraged to produce a solid stop. With the amount of arm/shoulder weight/force I apply to the string, my 3rd finger simply isn't strong enough to handle the pressure until I switch the angle of the whole mechanism in thumb position. As always, YMMV.

 

[onosson]

For BG and guitar family instruments, the force is commonly generated by extending and locking out the thumb on the back of the neck and then pivoting around this with the wrist so that the thumb becomes almost like a fulcrum - at least, that was the way I usually used and taught it, and how it was presented to me in my days as a classical guitar student. For DB, on the other hand, it is not the thumb but the weight of the arm that has to be leveraged to produce a solid stop. With the amount of arm/shoulder weight/force I apply to the string, my 3rd finger simply isn't strong enough to handle the pressure until I switch the angle of the whole mechanism in thumb position. As always, YMMV.

When I started learning DB, I tried to take this very difference in technique back to my BG playing, and I think it's the better for it. It's not necessarily applicable to every style or setting, but the use of the arm weight really changes the playing dynamic.

 

[damonsmith]

Ok. If that's what you think, that's cool man.

I do think that. The existence of working 1-2-3-4 systems was addressed in the first post.

Your insistence of the similarity and worse, the assertion that 1-2-3-4 is just as easy and just as viable is a total disservice to those moving from the bass guitar to the double bass.

 

[gerry grable]

I find that up to a point, the left hand stop required for jazz pizz playing is a bit of a different animal than is required for arco, as Damon says. A good friend and colleague who is a wonderful arco player has confirmed this in the past; without the bow to activate the string, a full stop becomes paramount.

Tips versus pads is another tonal issue involving amount of force required, and in the end I would say that the biggest difference between BG and DB left hand technique comes down to how the force tot stop the string is generated. For BG and guitar family instruments, the force is commonly generated by extending and locking out the thumb on the back of the neck and then pivoting around this with the wrist so that the thumb becomes almost like a fulcrum - at least, that was the way I usually used and taught it, and how it was presented to me in my days as a classical guitar student. For DB, on the other hand, it is not the thumb but the weight of the arm that has to be leveraged to produce a solid stop. With the amount of arm/shoulder weight/force I apply to the string, my 3rd finger simply isn't strong enough to handle the pressure until I switch the angle of the whole mechanism in thumb position. As always, YMMV.

I hesitate to butt my nose into this conversation, but
one tip that I have remembered and utilized for over 50 years came from Ray Brown who said: To get a good tone you need "matched hands." If you pull hard you must press hard. By extension, I can only assume that this would also apply to bow pressure.
As for the fingering methods. I have big hands and still can't play in tune with 1-2-3-4, particularly with the 3rd finger. I guess it's just a personal preference.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I hesitate to butt my nose into this conversation, but

I did too, but what the hell...