Double Bass Does electric bass fingering work on double bass? No.

[damonsmith]

But the patterns are the same regardless of the genre! What difference does genre make to the LH fingerings??

You know, I am fine with p***ing matches, too, So keep it coming.

I am going to say Bottensini and Bach at pitch are going to use different patterns than Limp Bizkit or "Teen town" or even the minutemen. But you can pretend they are the same if you really need the last word.

Myself, I still maintain that you have not brought a single thing to the discussion that wasn't covered in the VERY first post - which - after all this I'd still ask you to re-read!

To quote Reggie Workman; " You need to bring something to the beach besides sand."

 

[ChuckCorbis]

You know, I am fine with p***ing matches, too, So keep it coming..............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

To quote Reggie Workman; " You need to bring something to the beach besides sand."

Oh my. I don't think he'd appreciate being quoted right now.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Bottensinni and Bach at pitch are going to use different patterns than Limp Bizkit or "Teen town" or even the minutemen.

Have you ever played any Bottesini, or any of the Bach cello suites at pitch? I ask not only because of your mis-spelling of Bottesini, but because it was through playing Bach at pitch that I came to realize that, in my view, all types of (western) music could be played on the bass with an 'across the string' fingering approach. The fluidity of 'across the string', T-1-2-3 fingerings used when playing Bach are very much related to 1-2-3-4 EB fingerings, as anyone who has spent time with the cello suites at pitch using this approach will tell you.

This path brought me to discovering that there was a system if fingering which allowed that same, fluid T-1-2-3 style if playing to be used all over the bass. I don't play it, but its really interesting.

This is a DB fingering system which is directly related to EB 1-2-3-4 fingering. I think most people wouldn't hadn't heard of it, and it was at odds with what you have been saying about EB fingering, which is why I posted. This is what I've brought to the thread. I think it's valid, but if you don't, please explain.

You know, I am fine with p***ing matches, too, So keep it coming.

I think it's interesting to get to the bottom of different opinions, that way we can all learn. I'm not sure what a pi***ing match is, I can't say I've taken part in one, but I suppose you're being derogatory about my opposition to your views. It's not my intention to upset you, I think this is an interesting subject. Please don't take my differing opinion personally!

 

[onosson]

You know, I am fine with p***ing matches, too, So keep it coming.

I'm not sure what a pi***ing match is, I can't say I've taken part in one

This doesn't strike me as genuine, since you correctly added the "i" that Damon had omitted.

 

[damonsmith]

Everything you have said was addressed in the very first post. While you demonstrate a clear understanding of the double bass all your posts lack understanding of the bass guitar.
The most important aspect is that IF anyone goes through the rigorous training it takes to develop a functioning 1-2-3-4 left hand technique on the double they will NOT be thinking about bass guitar anymore.

The only differing opinions are the relationship to bass guitar (which is incorrect, but on topic) and the wider applicability of 1-2-3-4 (debatable but belongs in one of the many threads on four finger technique).

 

[ChuckCorbis]

This doesn't strike me as genuine, since you correctly added the "i" that Damon had omitted.

I thought Art was referring to a "pieating" contest. Since he added the ominous "i". You're right you need more ..... for that. Yeesh. Lest there be confusion!

 

[Art Vandelay]

This doesn't strike me as genuine, since you correctly added the "i" that Damon had omitted.

I've heard of the term, but I just don't know how such a contest would work! Is it the one with the biggest bladder wins? Maybe we are to 'perform' the contest on each other, which sounds like something for another forum, in another website altogether. I'd imagine knowing the direction of the prevailing wind at the time might be helpful...

 

[Michael Case]

Are there 4 finger methods for the double bass? Absolutely. Franke, Gale, New Dutch School, New American School and undoubtedly others.

They are generally considered advanced and built on as opposed to skipping over traditional double bass fingering. Even then it is not generally the best plan in the lower octaves.
Simandl is standard but other methods will get you there, too. The best plan is to get as many books as you can and check out all of them.


You really need to take a few months and focus on learning a whole new instrument.

This reads more like a preaching, or rant, not a question. Honestly, yes you do address four finger methods for DB, but you're mention of EB seems to be an after thought. IF you do know that there are four finger methods for DB, why even post this? Why carry on in this manner? IMHO YOU'RE the one splitting hairs. When it comes down to it there is a four finger method for DB, whether it directly relates to EB fingering or not is a second point. You opened the door, you also made two separate points. It looks to me like you don't have a clear idea of what you're asking in the OP.

Please stop, someone PLEASE be the bigger person and stop replying. I can't stop reading it although it does hurt my head.

 

[damonsmith]

. When it comes down to it there is a four finger method for DB, whether it directly relates to EB fingering or not is a second point. You opened the door, you also made two separate points. .

Actually, that is the only point of this thread. It was a question coming up often when I posted it. I'll stand by it.

 

[ChuckCorbis]

You guys know what happens when Mikey show's up?

 

[Art Vandelay]

The most important aspect is that IF anyone goes through the rigorous training it takes to develop a functioning 1-2-3-4 left hand technique on the double they will NOT be thinking about bass guitar anymore.

Interesting. Why do you think so? I often think of the EB shapes when playing, and I'm not much of an electric bassist! Also, if you learn 1-2-3-4 on DB as a method, not knowing any other, the training isn't any more 'rigorous' than 1-2-4. You either learn to play in tune or you don't.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

You guys know what happens when Mikey show's up?

Usually, he makes a good point. I'm letting this stand, although I will repeat my request for respectful responses. Take out all of the melodrama, and I think this is a very interesting subject. I've already weighed in with my views, so I feel no need to repeat them.

 

[damonsmith]

Interesting. Why do you think so? I often think of the EB shapes when playing, and I'm not much of an electric bassist! Also, if you learn 1-2-3-4 on DB as a method, not knowing any other, the training isn't any more 'rigorous' than 1-2-4. You either learn to play in tune or you don't.

Any training that gets the double bass played in tune is going to be rigorous - however, with 1-2-3-4 NOT working for so long, only a few very serious teachers teach it, making it a more serious course of study than say, several months with a jazz player or community orchestra player pushing you through Simandl or Billie.

I won't pretend I don't strongly believe 1-2-4 is a more solid & simple method and therefore easier to pick up.

All I will ever concede is that we just starting to see 1-2-3-4 is possible and only works in very a few circumstances.

You can continue to push, but I don't buy your arguments, or your pretense that it isn't personal.

 

[damonsmith]

I'd invite you over here:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f5/four-finger-approach-bowing-approach-815190/index2.html

To argue the merits of 1-2-3-4. I am not going to concede that it is related to bass guitar in this thread.

 

[ChuckCorbis]

Usually, he makes a good point. I'm letting this stand, although I will repeat my request for respectful responses. Take out all of the melodrama, and I think this is a very interesting subject. I've already weighed in with my views, so I feel no need to repeat them.

Exactly Chris. He usually cuts through the mustard and gets to the point. Unfortunately that's when the threads get closed. This has happened on more than one occasion. Just kiddin' Michael. Must be all those years at C.C.N.Y. Huh? They made me take Women's Studies to satisfy my core for the B.F.A. Get this. My Professor was a hard core. She actually had a goatee. It was real. No ****. She was the real deal. It was a great class. I thought for sure the first day it was gonna suck. Yeah. I think this is a really good thread. Sorry for the OT!

EDIT: Michael, didn't you study with John Patitucci? Did he transfer patterns from EB to DB? Or, is that just a "Minutemen" thing?

 

[Michael Case]

Lately when I chime in posts do get closed, before that people would just stop posting after I posted. Either way I AM THE THREAD KILLER!

I did study with JP and no he never transferred EB fingerings to the DB. At least not in his teaching me.

I guess when it comes down to it I do agree with Damon. Even with four finger methods for DB it is NOT the same as the DB. I did try for six months when I got my first DB to just transfer fingerings. Out of ignorance. My first DB lesson I was told to forget trying to play the DB like an EB. I never was able to do four fingers on the DB in tune in the lower octave.

 

[ChuckCorbis]

I am going to say Bottesini and Bach at pitch are going to use different patterns than Limp Bizkit or "Teen town" or even the minutemen.

Michael, you gotta pay attention youngin'. Earlier in the thread. A distinction was made between FINGERING and PATTERNS. That's what I was asking but that's O.K. It's not important now. The thread is still open and the power is still on. How do I know that? Because I'm still typing and my computer screen is on. Whew.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Interestingly apropos to this thread, I have a student at the moment who is transitioning from EB to DB. Since he also needs theory help with line construction, etc., I'm actually teaching him to play Simandl 1-2-4 fingerings on the BG so they will transfer more easily to the DB. That's about the only way I've ever gotten electric bass fingering to work on double bass.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I've been thinking a little more on the fluidity of T-1-2-3 'across the board' fingerings when playing, for instance, Bach cello suites at pitch, and I hope I'm not going too OT with this side note.

Solo Bach requires a kind of fluidity and 'oneness' with the instrument which, in my opinion, really 'exposes' the classical musician to the audience. There's nowhere to hide: you need to control each note, each phrase, and bring out the architecture of the piece as a whole. It's a terrifying balancing act that demands that you are not thinking about any physical challenge, but instead are focusing on expressing deeper thoughts and emotions. The technique should never be in your mind.

This 'musical nirvana' aim while playing, which I found through Bach, is, at least for me, THE goal, and I would imagine this applies to all musicians in all genres.

Having more chordal shapes (like T-1-2-3 in the higher register) in one hand position allows us to really 'feel' the chords under our hands, like a pianist. With 1-2-4, we can't play a scale in any mode or key without shifting (without using open strings). I found having all the options right there under my hands in the thumb position really beneficial to achieving the fluidity of musical thought required for Bach.

It also reminded me of EB playing, and at first I wasn't sure why. Physically, thumb position DB and 1-2-3-4 EB are such different beasts! It finally struck me that the logic was the same, the patterns the same. Then I discovered that 1-2-3-4 fingerings on DB were a real option, and that they have been taught for many years.

While I adapted the 1-2-3-4 patterns and incorporated the logic into my existing 1-2-4 system, an EB player, I believe, could really benefit as a beginning DBist by seeking out a 1-2-3-4 teacher, (as difficult as that may be) as the scale patterns and logic will be exactly the same, and that fluidity which I spoke of would be naturally built in to their LH fingerings. They would not need in later years to re-apply thumb position logic for lower positions, because the same logic would apply all over the bass!

 

[Art Vandelay]

... with 1-2-3-4 NOT working for so long ...

It hasn't been 'not working', I'd argue, it's been not 'existing' at least not in the way I described earlier. Just because it's new, and unusual, doesn't make it any less a viable method than any other.

only a few very serious teachers teach it, making it a more serious course of study than say, several months with a jazz player or community orchestra player pushing you through Simandl or Billie.

Well, any serious study, regardless of the fingering system used, will be serious study, right?

I won't pretend I don't strongly believe 1-2-4 is a more solid & simple method and therefore easier to pick up.

Surely coming from 1-2-3-4 EB and going to 1-2-3-4 DB will be theoretically the easiest route? Difficult to find a teacher, but it will use the same logic in LH patterns as before? As for the method being 'solid' or not, I think the proof is in the pudding. It is being taught and being learned, has been that way for many years. People use it, and like it, and go on to be very good musicians. I posted some video links earlier. What's not solid about that?

All I will ever concede is that we just starting to see 1-2-3-4 is possible and only works in very a few circumstances.

I think it's more accurate to say that the wider bass community is only recently becoming aware of this method. For those bass players that have learned it as the only system, it works for them, so that's it working in 100% of circumstances!

I understand that you're not going to agree with me on this, that's ok, but please don't take it personally, it's not personal for me, after all, I don't know you!