Double Bass Does electric bass fingering work on double bass? No.

[Marc Piane]

I guess what I'm getting at is I find not being able to use electric bass fingerings liberating. It is so easy to fall into fingering patterns and shapes on EB. Not that that is specific to EB fingerings but I just find that you have to think more sonically and less numerically on DB.

 

[Art Vandelay]

The patterns can be achieved that way, but as I could never play them in tune with 1-2-3-4 fingering on fretless DB, I didn't transfer them to the DB that way when I picked them up. .... The patterns remained intact, but the fingerings themselves were altered to facilitate better intonation....it doesn't feel like "thinking of one fingering system and playing another" to me, it's just a different vernacular of the same language. It's the transfer of the patterns themselves that matters - the fingerings are just another skill set to learn to apply to the patterns....

I always dismissed 1-2-3-4 as uncomfortable and difficult to tune as a concept, so it wasn't till it I was showed how it was physically achieved that I began to see its merits.

I completely agree with your (very articulate) description of using 1-2-3-4 patterns with a 1-2-4 method. It really does feel that way! While I agree that its the transfer -or application?- of the patterns that counts, I'd imagine if you could utilize the patterns with the same fingering system all over, the instrument could be played that bit more gracefully. And also it'd be that bit more like playing other string instuments (guitar included?)

 

[ChuckCorbis]

If you think primarily vertically on DB, which is what I think I do in 4ths, I don't think the horizontal stuff from electric translates to DB. Do some players lean towards one or the other on DB? Sorry if this is a stupid question guys and girls. I hope the terms vertical and horizontal apply here.

 

[damonsmith]

Yeah, that is a whole other aspect to the situation.
You can play across the strings with far less tonal variation on bass guitar than double bass. Most patterns are going to sound better played differently.
What fingering you use for a given line needs to be about what gets it played most musically. That will depend on speed, dynamic, technique, (pizz, arco, col lengo, etc.) and projection.

Classical solo strings make things work better across strings, but that set up is limited.
If you are going to play the double bass with any seriousness you are going to learn at the very least two fingering systems - thumb position + a lower position concept.
And at least two clefs, bass and treble if not tenor AND bass clef at pitch.

You really need to re-think the instrument. While you may end up playing some of the same notes with the same fingers it won't be about retaining bass guitar patterns or technique.

 

[Art Vandelay]

What fingering you use for a given line needs to be about what gets it played most musically.

This is very sound advice. In the classical world, when faced with an awkward passage, sometimes the fingering with the least shifts is the most awkward. It's interesting sometimes to try and follow the shape of the music when working out the fingering - to try and avoid motions contrary to the line of the music. Other times, the ability to play across the strings comfortably opens up a new world of possibility. Like Damon said, it depends on the music.

Classical solo strings make things work better across strings, but that set up is limited.
If you are going to play the double bass with any seriousness you are going to learn at the very least two fingering systems - thumb position + a lower position concept.
And at least two clefs, bass and treble if not tenor AND bass clef at pitch.[\QUOTE]

Do you mean limited in its transference to jazz playing? I'd agree that the vast majority at this point will learn two systems, but there are also very serious players using one system all over the instrument. (see above ad nauseum)

You really need to re-think the instrument. While you may end up playing some of the same notes with the same fingers it won't be about retaining bass guitar patterns or technique.

Definitely you need to re-think the instrument. BG technique just does not work on DB. A lot of the BG patterns can be kept, mentally (even when using a 1-2-4 system as Chris described above), and even physically if you're lucky enough to find a teacher that teaches 1-2-3-4 on DB!

 

[Art Vandelay]

If you think primarily vertically on DB, which is what I think I do in 4ths, I don't think the horizontal stuff from electric translates to DB. Do some players lean towards one or the other on DB? Sorry if this is a stupid question guys and girls. I hope the terms vertical and horizontal apply here.

I had been thinking vertically for many years, until a teacher recommended I begin practicing across the string modal scales, 3 octaves, with a pre-recorded piano playing along, using 1-2-3-4 'patterns' all over the bass (even though I was physically using the 1-2-4 system in lower positions). It means that every mode can be played in one position, across three strings (with the exception of dorian for which a type of shift is needed).

I found this gave me a level of surety playing 'across the bass' or ''horizontally'' as you put it, that I never thought existed before. Intonation improved dramatically, much more so than with previous scale practice. The LH (and I think my brain!) really appreciated using the one system everywhere, and all of a sudden nothing seemed really difficult any more. I was playing in 'new' parts of the bass (high up on the A string), parts I had believed and had been told were 'unsuitable' for good tone etc., and it forced me to develop control of tone and projection in these previously dusty parts of the fingerboard. It was certainly a breakthrough in my playing personally. It took about 6 months of serious daily practice to get there, but when it was working properly it was a great feeling. Totally worth the slog!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Regarding the "Along vs. Across" aspect of the discussion, it's obviously good to have a good foundation in both approaches. A general rule of thumb (NPI) that I've noticed in my own playing is that I tend to play more "along the string" when I've prepared something beforehand, probably to take tonal advantage of the longer string lengths available in this approach. When improvising, I tend to play a lot more "across the strings" to facilitate intervallic fluency - not knowing where you are going very far in advance means you may want to play large leaps in any key, and I find these easier to access across the strings than along the same string - and intonation as regards larger leaps in general.

In improvisation, much of the time I like to have absolutely no idea what note I am playing (by name in the moment, I mean) and tend to be following a flow of sound instead. This means that where I'm going is basically relative to where I am, and I find that I'm a lot more intonationally "sure footed" when traveling across the strings in this scenario at the moment. Not surprisingly, I find myself practicing things - especially arpeggios - these days to balance this out by working on different ways of shifting to include more larger leaps in an "along the string" setting. Live and learn!

For scales, it doesn't really seem to matter nearly as much, as the shifts are pretty manageable either way. Sometimes it's nice to practice ascending one way and descending the other just to mix things up.

 

[damonsmith]

Do you mean limited in its transference to jazz playing? I'd agree that the vast majority at this point will learn two systems, but there are also very serious players using one system all over the instrument. (see above ad nauseum)

I meant a set up with solo strings is limited. Are they not using thumb position? That seems possible, but a little silly.

I also don't feel 1-2-3-4 is proven stable outside of a few classical soloists, but that is a debate for another thread.
However, it does reinforce my original post - the fingering won't matter if they do end up playing 1-2-3-4 since the music itself will be so vastly different than what was played on bass guitar.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I meant a set up with solo strings is limited.

Do you mean solo tuned strings? What is different about the setup with solo strings (I've never used them!)

Are they not using thumb position? That seems possible, but a little silly.

I don't understand what you mean here. They do use thumb position, but use the 4 finger system, like BG, all over the bass. 1-2-3-4 in lower positions, T-1-2-3 in higher.

I also don't feel 1-2-3-4 is proven stable outside of a few classical soloists, but that is a debate for another thread.

I personally know some players who use it as their only system and sound great. I also know of teachers who have been teaching this way to very successful musicians (very few of whom are soloists) for years. But if you still don't feel it's 'proven', that's OK. I've done my best to try and show how and why it works in this thread, and how it could be potentially of use to EB players looking to stick to a 1-2-3-4 system on DB. But I'm not here to forcibly change anyone's mind, and I'm not going to judge if you still think it's nonsense!

 

[damonsmith]

I don't understand what you mean here. They do use thumb position, but use the 4 finger system, like BG, all over the bass. 1-2-3-4 in lower positions, T-1-2-3 in higher.!

That still equals two systems right?

But I'm not here to forcibly change anyone's mind, and I'm not going to judge if you still think it's nonsense!

Seems pretty forceful to me!

 

[Art Vandelay]

That still equals two systems right?

Not really - its a one finger per semitone system all over the bass, so the 1-2-3-4 patterns work everywhere. As 1-2-3-4 becomes a physical impossibility in higher positions, T-1-2-3 is used.

The alternative (which I use) uses the same mental patterns (1-2-3-4) all over the bass, but executes the patterns with a 1-2-4 fingering system in lower positions, which is two systems.

 

[damonsmith]

Use of the thumb will be new to bass guitarist therefore two systems. Stop splitting hairs.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Use of the thumb will be new to bass guitarist therefore two systems. Stop splitting hairs.

You're right when you say that the use of thumb will be new to a bass guitarist. Pretty much everything about physically playing the DB will of course be new to bass guitar players. But that doesn't make what I'm talking about two systems. With a 1-2-3-4/T-1-2-3 system, the left hand BG patterns can be retained and applied physically in one hand position, like on bass guitar. That's what I mean by one 'system'. I think you are confusing that with one 'shape', which is certainly impossible.

While those 1-2-3-4 hand patterns may still be mentally retained and applied in a 1-2-4/T-1-2-3 system (this is how I play, and it really is 2 systems), keeping one finger per semitone for the whole instrument would be that bit easier a transition for a BG player, assuming he can find a 1-2-3-4 teacher, which won't be easy!

 

[John Crosley]

Use of the thumb will be new to bass guitarist therefore two systems. Stop splitting hairs.

+1000

The thing that makes thumb position easier for me is the concept that the thumb replaces the nut of the instrument, replacing the pinky with the ring finger, and using the same fingerings as lower positions. This also helped me make sense of the Simandl three finger method for lower positions.

Now I use Simandl on BG more to retain my DB technique, rather than use four fingers on DB to retain my BG technique.

 

[timobee4]

I asked my college DB teacher friend Mr.Geoff Kluke about this 1-2-3-4 approach on DB (obviously not thumb position area) to my surprise he not just heard about but was able to demonstrate. Lightning fast, hard to follow with the eyes what's going on, takes time to master, removed from Simandl or Montag I studied but very impressive light fingered technique. He played Sophisticated Lady like that with tons of embellishments no finger ever stayed on the board like
Simandl, spiderlike, confusing to look at, not so neat like 1-2-4 but enough for me to see that it can be successfully implemented.

 

[damonsmith]

People have been doing it for longer than Simandl. It is still unrelated to bass guitar.

 

[timobee4]

People have been doing it for longer than Simandl. It is still unrelated to bass guitar.

It is unrelated but this thread has been hijacked/derailed long time ago.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Unrelated by technique, arguable. Related by patterns, undeniable. I think we've all been keeping it on topic, and it's interesting to read of differing thoughts and experiences on the matter.

 

[damonsmith]

Unrelated by technique, arguable. Related by patterns, undeniable

Agreed. However, IF a someone tracks down a teacher who teaches a legit four finger method the patterns will be of little use since the music will be so vastly different.

The main issue is many bass guitarists read 1-2-3-4 "works" and they run with it - which NEVER works.

 

[Art Vandelay]

...four finger method the patterns will be of little use since the music will be so vastly different...

But the patterns are the same regardless of the genre! What difference does genre make to the LH fingerings??