Double Bass Does electric bass fingering work on double bass? No.

[damonsmith]

Zero cases are still zero cases. The bass guitarists this thread addresses want to not study at all - not more rigorously. None of them are going to move to Berlin to study Mr. Wolfe.

That kid learned an advanced classical solo technique from the beginning. Awesome for him. It has nothing to do with this thread.

Please, find a thread that debates the merits of four finger methods not it's applicability to transitioning bass guitarists - since you clearly have no experience with bass guitar - or bass guitarists for that matter.
So:

Which I hope shows why I posted earlier:
"Does electric bass fingering work on double bass?

no.*

*Because it has yet to ever work in practice

 

[Art Vandelay]

Zero cases are still zero cases.

Let's say I just got off the phone to the German kid and he tells me, "before I started playing Double Bass, gues what? I played Electric". Would that be such a surprise? Does that now change everything? If the fingering method works, it works, and is transferable, right?

The bass guitarists this thread addresses want to not study at all - not more rigorously. None of them are going to move to Berlin to study Mr. Wolfe.

I didn't realize that this thread was only addressed to those that don't want to study at all. Hey, what about those that do, isn't this a worthwhile topic for them?

None want to go to Germany to study? You speak of every electric bass player all over the world with an internet connection and a grasp of the English language. You sure know a whole lot of electric bassists!

That kid learned an advanced classical solo technique from the beginning. Awesome for him. It has nothing to do with this thread.

For your basic, beginners fingering technique to be called advanced is nonsensical to me. He just fingered the bass the way he was taught. It was just as easy for him as the 1-2-4 method, just the only way he knows. Its relevance to this thread is that the 1-2-3-4 method he plays is (although you claim I don't understand something here) electric bass fingering.

Please, find a thread that debates the merits of four finger methods not it's applicability to transitioning bass guitarists - since you clearly have no experience with bass guitar - or bass guitarists for that matter.

I've played a few professional shows on electric bass, took lessons and played for about 5 years. That was a few years ago, and I don't play electric any more, so I don't call myself an electric player. How does that make my points irrelevant?

Oh, and you'll be shocked to hear that some of my good friends are electric players. I know. I know. Crazy.

So:

no.*

*Because it has yet to ever work in practice**

**Except in both the videos posted in this thread.

 

[damonsmith]

Again, you are in the wrong thread. The original point is to make sure they understand their existing technique doesn't work on double bass. You are just clouding the issue with you mis-understanding of the thread.

 

[John Crosley]

**Except in both the videos posted in this thread.

And as in the video before - he is playing in mid and upper register, where it is becoming more common to ue four finger technique - Nothing in the lower positions.

 

[Art Vandelay]

The original point is to make sure they understand their existing technique doesn't work on double bass.

We are absolutely in agreement that their existing EB LH technique does not work on double bass. Finger strength, neck thickness, lack of frets, the curve of the fingers etc., etc., are all different.

My issue was with what you wrote not only in the title of the thread, but more importantly the following:

Are there 4 finger methods for the double bass? Absolutely...They are generally considered advanced and built on as opposed to skipping over traditional double bass fingering...Even then it is not generally the best plan in the lower octaves.

I just wanted to let people know that some methods use the EB fingering system as the basis LH technique. I thought it was, and still think it is, interesting and relevant.

Phew! I think we're finally getting close to resolving this!

 

[Art Vandelay]

And as in the video before - he is playing in mid and upper register, where it is becoming more common to ue four finger technique - Nothing in the lower positions.

It's hard to tell, but it looks like you might be right...You've a keen eye! It does look like in half position 1-2-3-4 is avoided unless necessary. I'll try and find a video of 1-2-3-4 in half position soon. Hey, like I said, I'm no expert on the system. It could be that, as an advanced technique, the 1-3-4 system is adopted on occasion in lower positions. I am 100% sure that the 1-2-3-4 is the basis though.

 

[damonsmith]

My issue was with what you wrote not only in the title of the thread, but more importantly the following:
I just wanted to let people know that some methods use the EB fingering system as the basis LH technique. I thought it was, and still think it is, interesting and relevant.
:

EVEN IF THE SAME FINGERS ARE USED IT IS NOT THE SAME THING. NOT AT ALL.
Same fingers, different system. Different instrument, different system.
Since you admit you don't quite get the difference - please let it go.

 

[damonsmith]

I just wanted to let people know that some methods use the EB fingering system as the basis LH technique. I thought it was, and still think it is, interesting and relevant.

No legit double bass methods have ANY basis in bass guitar technique. They are based 'cello and other string methods and the experience of virtuoso classical musicians.

Even this:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

The fact that Dalla Torre, one of the most awesome proponents of four finger technique started on bass guitar doesn't change the point of the thread.

 

[ChuckCorbis]

Kindly. Vandelay is a cool name. Thanks for sharing Art. He said some things others couldn't quite verbalize. No one got hurt. Great thread and discussion by the way.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Really?? You still can't see how the one-finger-per-semitone, and the one-finger-per-fret system are similar? That these two systems, on two instruments of the same pitch, and not massively dissimilar string lengths, are pretty much the same thing?

I'm not saying that the 1-2-3-4 DB method is based on EB fingerings, it's just that they happen to be the same system. One finger per semitone. Am I not explaining myself well? What am I missing?

I feel at this point that you may be taking a stubborn stand on this topic for some other reason, especially considering your accusations and mild threat. I think it's got to the stage where continuing arguing on this point will bring more negatives than positives to this topic, so I suppose we'll have to respect each others views on it, and leave it at that.

As for your accusations - I'm not Tom Gale, I don't know him other than seeing his name in these forums a now and again. Personally, I appreciate that this forum allows for anonymity, which I choose to preserve. I haven't been, nor do I intend to ever be abusive or disrespectful, and see no reason for your (dare I say slightly paranoid) thinking that I'm somebody else.

Hmmm. An unfortunate end to what was, for a while, a very interesting thread, and debate.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Gentlemen, this is a discussion. No one is going to force anyone to agree with them. Say your bit, say it respectfully, and let it ride. I have found the discussion aspect of this little sidebar very interesting, along with the links (both the videos and the text ones). It's the arguing that needs to stop. Nobody ever "wins" an argument on the internet.

What was the famous cartoon about this? Give me a minute....

ah, here we go:

 

[Art Vandelay]

Agreed.

I need to sleep!

 

[Anonymatt]

I don't get it, so Art Vandelay is a fake name??

 

[ChuckCorbis]

Kindly. Vandelay is a cool name. Thanks for sharing Art. He said some things others couldn't quite verbalize. No one got hurt. Great thread and discussion by the way.

Hey Chris. You put my "kindly" in the same place the originator would have put it. His syntax and influence are unstoppable. Thanks.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I don't get it, so Art Vandelay is a fake name??

We don't really know that. But at worst, it's no more or less fake than "Anonymatt".

 

[damonsmith]

I can see how someone can think it is similar, especially starting on double bass.
However, it really isn't. When you come from bass guitar you just don't have a string player's hand. It doesn't function in the same way. Especially with frets (although fretless players see have just as much trouble adjusting).
Shifts and pivots are just not done in the same way and the hand just doesn't work the same.
Many if not most logical patterns used on bass guitar just sound better if played with different patterns in different locations on double bass.

I really did not want this thread to devolve into debating the merits of four finger technique, but coming from bass guitar/hanging on to your bass guitar fingerings isn't really a great reason so pursue four finger technique.
You really need to be ready to learn a new instrument and really become a string player.
Now, if you end up at a college where Mark Morton or Diana Gannett is teaching, then sure that is a great reason.
Regardless of "Art" or any other four finger zealot, it is still in the early stages of being proven for wider use.
While classical and jazz use similar left hand shapes, laying down an ostinato pizz unamplified with a drummer could be a problem.
I think it is a great addition - I use it, but we are not a place where it is going to be the only way just yet.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Well, I appreciate you explaining where you're coming from with the 1-2-3-4 EB vs 1-2-3-4 DB. I agree that when one goes EB to DB the left hand needs to be strengthened, the lack of frets requires more accuracy and pressure, and being a vertical rather than horizontal orientation for the left arm, any movement will have to be re-learned.

For most of us DB players who have spent a long time playing 1-2-4, myself included, the concept of having a 5th between fingers 2 and 4, and a minor 6th between 1 and 4, is bizarre. So much of what we do when playing is a combination of muscle memory of shapes and patterns in the left hand. When playing, we don't think about where a 5th is, we know it, and have to know it on a subconscious level. Without it being rooted way down in the subconscious we are playing bass using our conscious minds, and there's only so much room in there!

While completely relearning the shapes and patterns when doing a 1-2-3-4 EB to 1-2-4 DB change is very possible - especially considering how different the instruments feel physically for the LH - it takes time. Being able to use the same fundamental hand shape, retaining the 2-4 perfect fifth, and the 1-4 perfect sixth, speeds the process to this subconscious hand-shape Nirvana, and this could indeed be a factor in considering searching for a one-finger-per-fret DB teacher when coming from EB.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say, "I wanted to play DB because I love playing 1 finger per fret", but if the same fingering system exists and works well, then why not, right?

New concepts for double bass fingerings aren't approved by any worldwide governing body. There isn't any laboratories conducting tests on monkeys playing 1/112th size basses. (I hope.) The 'proof' of if it 'works' for the wider community is in the playing, and those videos I posted earlier show 1-2-3-4 DB working really well. I don't appreciate the term zealot, considering that I don't use the system. Especially when its coming from a 1-2-4 zealot like yourself. (joke)

I don't think there is any one way to play the double bass. Just a really interesting spectrum of methods and techniques that can be blended to form an individual's technique. At the moment (I imagine) 99% of double bassists use 1-2-4, (or 1-3-4.) If Silvio Dalla Torre is correct, and the 1-2-3-4 method is the method of the future, then why not consider it when coming from EB, and keep some of the fundamental concepts?

 

[Art Vandelay]

Art Vandelay? OF course it's a made-up name! Where are all the Seinfeld fans??

 

[ChuckCorbis]

While classical and jazz use similar left hand shapes, laying down an ostinato pizz unamplified with a drummer could be a problem.

Damon, could you elaborate on what exactly you mean here? So, are you saying for example, when Percy Heath lays down an ostinato pizz using his 1-2-3 fingerings in a low position in lieu of 1-2-4, it only works because the drummer Connie Kay happens to be an expert at playing at a low volume?

 

[damonsmith]

Damon, could you elaborate on what exactly you mean here? So, are you saying for example, when Percy Heath lays down an ostinato pizz using his 1-2-3 fingerings in a low position in lieu of 1-2-4, it only works because the drummer Connie Kay happens to be an expert at playing at a low volume?

That is a different scene all together!