The lower 1/2 position stuff in the example of Michael Wolf looks like "Bille" or Petracchi to me. 1-1-2. No? Middle 1-2-3-4 then upper T-1-2-3.
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Double Bass Does electric bass fingering work on double bass? No.
- Thread starter damonsmith
- Start date
Please re-read the first post which acknowledges the existence of several legit 1-2-3-4 methods.
Bass guitar technique is different as I pointed out a few posts back.
Bass guitar technique is different as I pointed out a few posts back.
Art Vandelay said:
I know quite a few, and not just EB players but acoustic guitar players as well. Basically everyone wants to have a go! They all fail to play in tune, I can spot a weekend DB player from a mile by watching either hands for a split second, bad intonation and fingers painful to watch.
I totall agree. In no way was I saying that 1-2-3-4 should be taught outright, not even on bass guitar. I learned Karol Kaye style and Smandil at the same time, so I'm a bastard, and I love it. "Joe Fields" would be my name in A Song of Ice and Fire.
I would not say that bass guitar fingerings as much as patterns can be played on double bass. This is completely different. I recently found a copy of Chuck Sher's 'The Improvisors Bass Method', where he teaches both BG and DB together, using the same patterns, but different fingerings. Sher's fingerings for DB? You guessed it...Simandl.
As I courtesy I actually did re-read your first post. Again. This is the second time you've asked me to do that - I'm starting to feel like this is getting a bit hostile, I really don't want it to be! I just find this topic interesting. I still don't understand quite what's the difference between 1-2-3-4 DB and 1-2-3-4 EB, if both can be achieved with ease! I don't play electric, so I have to ask again - could you explain to me the difference between the techniques with regards to the left hand for both instruments, since we both agree that at least one 1-2-3-4 fingering method works for double bass as a fingering method.
I totally agree - I wasn't being very clear I guess...
The attraction of the upright is a force of nature to all who can play pretty much any string instrument.
I meant a pro-standard electric player wouldn't take on a pro-standard double bass gig if he'd never played DB before.
That's interesting! I find it difficult sometimes to keep thinking 1-2-3-4 patterns in lower positions, especially at speed! Yet the 1-2-3-4 patterns are definitely what are in my head/hands when I play. I guess lots or even most people think this way?
If that is true - then our understanding of the LH technique/chordal patters of the bass as a whole is developed very late...Maybe a drawback of the Simandl method?
Yes, it is getting tiresome.
Clearly.
1-2-3-4 is not achieved by anyone "with ease". First of all, 1-2-3-4 on the double bass is not a very proven method, a VERY small amount of VERY serious musicians have started to make a case for it, more in the classical realm and far fewer in jazz. While there is some success with it, we are far away from it being proven stable and useful to a wider range of bassists and genres.
As I stated earlier, with STATIONARY hand position four half steps are possible on the bass guitar for most adults. for 1-2-3-4 to work on the double very precise shifts or pivots are required and the methods out there require far more work and practice than just learning a more standard three finger 1-2-4 (Simandl) or 1-3-4 (Billie) method.
So, basically you are in the wrong thread. This thread is not disputing whether 1-2-3-4 works on the double bass - there are several threads threads that address that, so, please, find one!
This thread addresses the widespread and very common mis-conception that bass guitarists can just pick up the double bass and with play it with a stationary four finger span.
Debates about legit four finger methods just muddy the waters - as these bass guitarists are looking for an easier route when four methods are quite a bit harder - in short you don't study a four finger method to retain your bass guitar technique - you study it to push the upper limits of virtuosity and possibilities on the instrument.
Wow. I thought that the point of this forum was to debate such interesting pedagogic topics - excuse me if I'm in the wrong place. I'm sorry that you find the discussion tiresome, I don't want to be making anyone tired. I'm sensing a growing hostility, so I guess we're pretty much at the point where we'll have to agree to disagree. And then after you could take a nice nap. Just kidding!
I think I've shown in this thread that 1-2-3-4 is achievable with ease. I've discussed a method, and shown a video. Just because it's new and most people don't use it/know about it, doesn't make it "not useful" to a wide range of bassists. In fact I think many people would be interested in this and is therefore the debate we're having is much more informative than a topic that seems to declare an all-out ban on 1-2-3-4 fingerings for EB-playing newcomers as the basis for a fingering method, and leave it at that.
Ah! There's some new info here which sheds some light on your opinion. STATIONARY. Hmm. Ok, while the method I was talking about does arguably require the slightest of turns of the left wrist, I suppose I can't argue that it is completely STATIONARY. Then again, with the traditional Simandl method, we can't even play a major scale (no open strings) while keeping our hands STATIONARY. 8 precise shifts on the way up, 8 precise shifts on the way down. I'd argue that the slightest - and I mean slightest - rolling motion of the wrist (which allows the same fingering patters to be used all over the bass), trumps 8 shifts each way to play a major scale(with 2 different fingering systems for the instrument), theoretically and physically. We'll agree to disagree I guess...
But as I've showed there IS an easier route for the EB players looking to find a method that used 1-2-3-4 patterns as a basis for on the DB! What's wrong with that? It's new. It exists. It works. People use it and like it and find it just as easy as 1-2-4. Yes, it's difficult to find a teacher to teach it, and (as has been said ad infinitum on this site) without a good teacher you won't get the results. Just because you don't like it and don't want to acknowledge it doesn't change that fact. Well...I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
What you call muddying the water I call a different opinion which broadens and betters our understanding of the bass as part of an online community. Which is what this site, and this forum is all about right? But you're entitled to your opinion too, no disrespect.
damonsmith said:
Very true!!!! Don't get baited/sucked into the thread of the weekend DB warriors. Anyone even debating 1-2-3-4 isn't worth listening to or argue with. Let it die mate.
[QUOTE="Art Vandela I think I've shown in this thread that 1-2-3-4 is achievable with ease
I think If you achieved it, use it, well done, good luck, happy days. 1-2-3-4 on a DB great idea, next to the idea of having a pocket on singlet.
I think If you achieved it, use it, well done, good luck, happy days. 1-2-3-4 on a DB great idea, next to the idea of having a pocket on singlet.
This is really unnecessarily hostile. All new ideas aren't bad. It's just a discussion, there's no need to get your knickers in a twist. Discussions and new ideas are why we're here. Weekend DB warriors? What is that supposed to mean?
All you have shown is that you do not understand the bass guitar or the situation at hand. PLEASE, find one of the many threads that address whether or not 1-2-3-4 works on double bass. There are several.
Because it is NOT a new idea:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Because it is NOT a new idea:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
If this gets disrespectful, I will have to start editing or close it. This is supposed to be a discussion forum. Kindly do not resort to name calling when someone has a different opinion than you.
The issue at hand is the difference between 1-2-3-4 fingering for the double bass, and 1-2-3-4 BG fingering. As long as we admit that there is a difference, there would be no reason not to include some discussion of that topic in this thread. If the argument is that there is no difference, that is a different can of worms, and that could then be discussed. Figure out which of these things is happening, and then discuss. Right now this has devolved into an argument over what is likely a misunderstanding.
The issue at hand is the difference between 1-2-3-4 fingering for the double bass, and 1-2-3-4 BG fingering. As long as we admit that there is a difference, there would be no reason not to include some discussion of that topic in this thread. If the argument is that there is no difference, that is a different can of worms, and that could then be discussed. Figure out which of these things is happening, and then discuss. Right now this has devolved into an argument over what is likely a misunderstanding.
I don't think this gentleman is a weekend warrior. I think he is an experienced classical player with zero understanding of the bass guitar who is ready to fight the good fight about 1-2-3-4 on the double bass. Awesome. But this is not the thread for it.
Beyond not understanding the BG, where Art & I dffer is whether four finger left hand technique is easy. It is not. It is an extremely advanced classical method - proven reliable by only a very few GREAT musicians.
Once there are some clear precedents for bass guitarists transitioning to double bass using this technique there may be some support for his argument, however, at this time, all I know of are empty claims and failures.
So, yes while it is theoretically possible, since it has not happened yet there is no basis on which to recommend it.
It's an interesting article, but it's not addressing the 1-2-3-4 system in the same way as I described, not at all. The method I'm describing is a recent concept, within the past 20 years.
I've agreed with much of what you say and disagreed with some. I'm sorry if I hi-jacked your thread into something else, but I've been making an honest effort to keep my points relevant to the topic. I'd be interested to hear how I've shown that I don't understand the situation at (left) hand.
I don't think I will search for whether or not 1-2-3-4 works on bass or not, seems as we both agree that it does! (?)
Maybe I don't understand some things about the BG 1-2-3-4 system - excuse my ignorance if that's the case - but if I don't you really haven't made much of an effort to help me understand!
I've tried to be as clear as I can and explain myself when I feel I'm not being understood. I find it usually helps people to understand my point of view: I try not to say, "you don't understand", I prefer to say "Hey, look at it this way and see what you think."
But this is my point!!! There is at least 1 method of teaching 1-2-3-4 fingering patterns on DB to beginners - to kids. Like I said, these kids often go on to become great players.
Yes, it can be taught as an advanced technique in a Simandl setting, all I'm saying is that this is not always the case.
Here's a 17 year old German kid who's always learned the 1-2-3-4 method. Not as an advanced technique. As the only way.
I don't use the 1-2-3-4 method, and it's not a personal mission of mine to 'spread the good news'. I just thought it might be interesting for BGists out there to know that such a method does exist. I do come from a predominantly classical background, although I spent a few years paying the rent only by playing jazz. And since the LH techniques are very, very similar (if not identical) for classical and jazz playing, I think it's relevant to everyone here.
The hard fact in this argument is there are zero cases of it happening. As four finger technique is more widely taught there may be some.
When you have turned out a full student load of bass guitarists transitioning this way and playing the instrument your argument will hold some water.
Right now there are zero or few cases (that I am unaware of).
The bass guitar is whole different instrument. Go down to your music shop(pe) and try one!
Also, it remains to be seen whether it works at all for heavy pizzicato playing as in jazz and other music.
This is the link I meant to post:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
When you have turned out a full student load of bass guitarists transitioning this way and playing the instrument your argument will hold some water.
Right now there are zero or few cases (that I am unaware of).
The bass guitar is whole different instrument. Go down to your music shop(pe) and try one!
Also, it remains to be seen whether it works at all for heavy pizzicato playing as in jazz and other music.
This is the link I meant to post:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
So we both agree that EB to DB beginners need to learn the DB as a new instrument, it's a different beast. We also agree that it is possible for a beginner DB player to learn 1-2-3-4 as a method. (like in the last video)
Zero cases of what happening? What difference does it make whether one of these beginners who learned 1-2-3-4 played EB before or not? If they did play EB before, the way I see it they would be at an advantage as the LH patterns would be already mentally established.
Which I hope shows why I posted earlier:
"Does electric bass fingering work on double bass? Yes.*
*But it's not traditional, and it takes work: find a good teacher that teaches it as a dedicated method and not just a technique (not so easy), and practice, practice, practice."
If I'm still missing something please explain - I'm always happy to learn!
I don't think that there's an issue of the fingers being able to hold down the strings when playing jazz. The strings need to be firmly held down when playing either classical or jazz. As we've seen it working in action, I think that argument is a non-runner. LH finger strengthening for DB is an integral part of most methods when it comes to DB.
I really liked the article you linked to, of which I'm in agreement!: "I am convinced that the four-finger technique is the system of the future for playing the double bass .. and that in the long term, the Simandl method of playing will disappear... Particularly in the USA, the technique is taught more and more, at the least in coexistence with the traditional system... In Germany, the American Michael Wolf has been teaching the method for many years at the Berlin University of the Arts."
Maybe in years to come EB players will find it difficult to find a 1-2-4 teacher, and all those who played EB beforehand will be able to use the same fingerings on DB.
