Double Bass Does electric bass fingering work on double bass? No.

[Steve Freides]

The Hal Leonard _ electric_ bass book takes what is, in my opinion, a very good approach for e.b. It first teaches 1-2-4 much as Simandl would, but then it introduces 4-finger techniques when it teaches the pattern to play a one-octave major scale. I mention it here because I think the order is right and anyone moving to upright from e.b. really ought to learn the traditional Simandl way of doing things first before deciding how much of their e.b. technique they'd like to use on their upright. (I like the Hal Leonard book better than anything else out there for new e.b. students.)

Speaking for myself, when I learned upright, I found myself bringing Simandl to my electric playing and not the other way around.

-S-

 

[damonsmith]

The Hal Leonard _ electric_ bass book takes what is, in my opinion, a very good approach for e.b. It first teaches 1-2-4 much as Simandl would, but then it introduces 4-finger techniques when it teaches the pattern to play a one-octave major scale. I mention it here because I think the order is right and anyone moving to upright from e.b. really ought to learn the traditional Simandl way of doing things first before deciding how much of their e.b. technique they'd like to use on their upright. (I like the Hal Leonard book better than anything else out there for new e.b. students.)

Speaking for myself, when I learned upright, I found myself bringing Simandl to my electric playing and not the other way around.

-S-

Sure it does work the other way around, but IMO one of the only reasons to pick up the BG is that you can use 4 fingers and shift less!

 

[timobee4]

Playing with 1-2-4 fingering is all about intonation. That string length is about 8 inches longer than bass guitar. Try a little test. Pick up a tuner and a bow. Play a 2 octave F major scale. If you can play it in tune with a 4 finger technique right out of the chute, I'll come and wax your car

And I detail it inside and fill the tank!

 

[MustacheJoeII]

I know that Stanly Clarke uses four on the board when playing double bass (which I would do if I had giant hands), and I've always used 1-2-4 on bass guitar, that's just the way I was taught. Karol Kaye's method of teaching BG is basically Simandl with a few tweaks for differences between the instruments.

If your hands are big enough, or you've got Paganini/Abe Lincoln Disease, I see absolutly no reason why not to take advantage of it. I'm 5' 9 3/4" tall, so I have to use proper technique or I'm done for; it's very physically hard for me to use 1-2-3-4 on bass guitar (if I do, I use a lot of minute shifting in 1/2 to 2nd pos.)

However, I do think that you should first learn the rules before you start breaking them. Knowing where everything is on the fingerboard and learning in a more traditional method allows you to branch out from there.

 

[damonsmith]

Stanley is awesome, but not a poster-child for pure intonation, not that I am either, but it just doesn't support the argument. I'd file it under "great player/bad habit".

 

[ShiftyShift]

I use the exact same fingering for electric and double. I anchor my thumb on the side of the extended spot of the ebony fretboard thingy and just use my standard 2 finger technique. I don't play double a lot anymore, but its what I started out on, and I have used the exact same technique since the day I picked up the double.

 

[Anon2962]

Please read the whole thread or at least the first post before posting non-sense. You are talking about legit, classical, four finger double bass fingering which is NOT in any way electric bass fingering and was mentioned in the first post.
It is an advanced techinque being taught all over the world. There is a world of difference between "The New Dutch School", Franke, Art Davis, ASODB etc. and an 18 year old bass guitarist picking up a double bass and paying just like his BG and thinking he is in tune - which unfortunately is far more widespread than legit four finger classical methods and what the thread is addressing.

Wow. Strong reaction there, buddy! I said that there are teachers teaching 1-2-3-4 fingering method all over the bass. METHOD. Not TECHNIQUE. If you had only read my post before posting such drivel..

Seriously though, 1-2-3-4 is taught from day one. Seems as electric players in general use this same fingering system, I'd strongly recommend it for those who read music using 1-2-3-4 method. It would save a lengthy transitional period.

Obviously one cannot simply go from electric to double bass using this method and expect everything to just work, they are different beasts!

 

[timobee4]

Seriously though, 1-2-3-4 is taught from day one.

For upright students? Where? My first teacher told me at 13 that my 3rd finger will support the 4th finger for a long time before it gets to work in the trans and thumb position area. After 30 years I still haven't figured out why the thread when the answer is obvious. Again if you 8 feet tall with 7" fingers I believe BG fingering would word just fine. Double bass fingering method is also a logical well calculated measuring device to navigate effortlessly on the fingerboard much like a gymnast. BG fingering are for BG players only (IMO) because once the poor student learn to use DB method (technique) he/she will likely be taking DB technique back to BG.

 

[Art Vandelay]

For upright students? Where? My first teacher told me at 13 that my 3rd finger will support the 4th finger for a long time before it gets to work in the trans and thumb position area. After 30 years I still haven't figured out why the thread when the answer is obvious. Again if you 8 feet tall with 7" fingers I believe BG fingering would word just fine. Double bass fingering method is also a logical well calculated measuring device to navigate effortlessly on the fingerboard much like a gymnast. BG fingering are for BG players only (IMO) because once the poor student learn to use DB method (technique) he/she will likely be taking DB technique back to BG.

Michael Wolf teaches this 1-2-3-4 method to beginners in Berlin. It's a new method, but it makes sense. Many of his students are monsters by 15! The description of how this is technically achieved was written earlier in the thread. Very interesting.

 

[timobee4]

students are monsters by 15!

And by 18 they eat their basses! If it works for them why not. Club of the contorted fingers! IMO

 

[Art Vandelay]

I really think this will be the way fingering systems will go in years to come. With 'traditional' fingering systems, the problem is that the bass is essentially divided in 2: the lower position system, and a separate higher position system - sometimes people even use a third fingering system in the transitional area.

Imagine being able to use the same hand shape and therefore concept of chord shapes all over the bass. (the higher positions have options of extending more than a semitone per finger, but the basic semitone hand position works everywhere). Sight-reading and chordal thinking must be that little bit more comfortable for those who have learned this system from the beginning.

I learned the 'traditional' two system method: 1-2-4, T-1-2-3, and while it's attractive theoretically, the amount of time it'd take to unlearn the old fingering patters after many years of practice is just too much!

 

[damonsmith]

Agreed with both of you. The thread is NOT addressing that. There are several threads that address 4 fingers methods. This is not one of them. This thread addresses the widespread mis-conception that electric bassists who think they will not have to re-learn another method and just put down bass guitar and pick up the double bass and start playing.

So sure, if a bass guitarist wants to go study Hans Roelofsen, that might be the best idea, but that is NOT WHAT HAPPENS.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I don't know of ANY electric players who think that they can just pick up a double bass and start playing it just because they play the EB. Maybe some beginners out there also think that because they play trumpet they can play tuba? As for professional musicians or even decent amateurs who think this way? I know none.

Damon, you said: "The bottom line here is there not a single internationally recognized double bassist that uses electric bass fingering, only guys who post about it on talkbass." What is the difference between the 1-2-3-4 fingering system on the double bass, and "electric bass fingering" - surely they are the same concept - one finger per semitone? If that's the case then there are plenty of examples of internationally recognized bassists using 1-2-3-4 all over the bass, just like EB players.

Am I missing something here??

This thread is still really interesting, even if everyone is taking about different things

 

[damonsmith]

I don't know of ANY electric players who think that they can just pick up a double bass and start playing it just because they play the EB. Maybe some beginners out there also think that because they play trumpet they can play tuba? As for professional musicians or even decent amateurs who think this way? I know none.

One is born every 30 seconds, they stumble into talkbass often!

 

[LM Bass]

This is one of those topics that you can't really discuss without experience. If you've taken lessons with a really good double bass teacher (one who has studied with lots of others), you'll have a perspective on fingering that is informed.

I have to express that I often come across beginning double bass "converts" that don't know how to play in tune because they haven't learned a fingering system that works. It's much worse when I hear band teachers (that are usually wind players) that are ignorant of the differences between the two instruments.

 

[John Crosley]

If it has been explained in this thread, I apologize for overlooking it, but what are the differences between the 'four finger method' on Double Bass (where it seems that each finger would cover one half step), and a 'one finger per fret' (aka- half step intervals) on bass guitar? I come from a bass guitar background, but have studied Simandl.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Apart from the physical differences (the notes being further apart due to the longer string length, and the obvious vertical rather than horizontal orientation), I can't think of any.

Perhaps the thread should be renamed?

Does electric bass fingering work on double bass? Yes.*

*But it's not traditional, and it takes work: find a good teacher that teaches it as a dedicated method and not just a technique (not so easy), and practice, practice, practice.

 

[damonsmith]

Yeah, there no good examples of it actually working, and if one or two can be found, they are too few to bet on. So, no the thread doesn't need to be re-named.
Your ideas are not untrue, but take way more work than just learning a traditional fingering for double bass.
The biggest difference is clearly that the 4 fingers can be used on BG without pivots or shifts, with the hand open and ready to play across four half steps.

There are no solid examples of ANYONE doing that on double bass. Hence, the thread name.

Apart from the physical differences (the notes being further apart due to the longer string length, and the obvious vertical rather than horizontal orientation), I can't think of any.

Perhaps the thread should be renamed?

Does electric bass fingering work on double bass? Yes.*

*But it's not traditional, and it takes work: find a good teacher that teaches it as a dedicated method and not just a technique (not so easy), and practice, practice, practice.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Your ideas are not untrue, but take way more work than just learning a traditional fingering for double bass.

The biggest difference is clearly that the 4 fingers can be used on BG without pivots or shifts, with the hand open and ready to play across four half steps.

There are no solid examples of ANYONE doing that on double bass. Hence, the thread name.

I hope you won't take offense if i disagree again!

If you learn the 1-2-3-4 fingering system from scratch, if it's just the only way you know how to play the bass, and can play it with the same physical ease as the 1-2-4 method, surely one system is not 'more difficult' (mentally or physically) than another? It's just...different. In fact, if you can use one system all over the bass, (1-2-3-4 and T-1-2-3) surely that makes playing the instrument mentally easier?

Like I've been saying, there is at least one method which uses uses a 4-finger system all over the bass without pivots or shifts. Are we to dismiss it as difficult or wrong just because it is not traditional? Here is as clear an example as I can find of this method in action - look at the opening three notes for the double bass. Notice the lack of pivots or shifts and the ability to cover a minor 3rd in one position, without having very large hands. Just the method I'm talking about, working.

There's a description of how this 4-finger-in-one-position-no-sweat method is achieved (albeit perhaps not the most succinct description - i don't use this method!) earlier in this thread.

I don't mind if you want to keep the thread name the same, I was just kidding about that. But surely you can see that what you said didn't exist and doesn't work, in fact does!

If we are here on talkbass to share ideas, to further our understanding of the instrument and its possibilities, shouldn't we be welcoming with open arms a new idea, a new method, such as this?

 

[John Crosley]

Like I've been saying, there is at least one method which uses uses a 4-finger system all over the bass without pivots or shifts. Are we to dismiss it as difficult or wrong just because it is not traditional? Here is as clear an example as I can find of this method in action - look at the opening three notes for the double bass. Notice the lack of pivots or shifts and the ability to cover a minor 3rd in one position, without having very large hands. Just the method I'm talking about, working.

I also notice that (as others have pointed out) he is playing in the middle range of the neck when doing this. In lower positions I see 1-2-4. Not saying I disagree, just an observation. I myself would love to learn the four finger method.

Having studied this instrument over the last few years, I have noticed how controversial some of these 'new' methods are due to traditional training, etc. It seems that someone realizes there is an easier way that works for them, they try to pass this along, and they get slammed for it. How long has Rabbath had his method, and it is still causing controversy?