Gale is the real thing! I think Art studied bass with a 'cellist for a while, and it is similar to what FMartin talks about above.
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Double Bass Does electric bass fingering work on double bass? No.
- Thread starter damonsmith
- Start date
Gale is the real thing! I think Art studied bass with a 'cellist for a while, and it is similar to what FMartin talks about above.
Art never talked much in h.s. because he had a severe stuttering problem which, I think, was the reason he eventually went into teaching psychology as a major. GREAT player and one of the nicest guys you ever want to meet. We played together in the hs orchestra - bass - and band - he was on tuba and I played trumpet. Classes or '52' and '54' (me!)
Tom Gale
To each his own but my DB and BG fingerings are nearly identical (up to thumb position) with the rare exception of using my thumb on DB in lower positions. I actually managed to teach myself Simandl technique when learning BG and the transition to upright was not difficult at all in the left hand. For me, 4 finger technique on BG is nearly as uncomfortable as it is on DB. When I stretch my hands to reach more notes I feel that I lose the strength and control that I have with Simandl technique. This doesn't mean that I strictly adhere to the 3 finger system but most of my exceptions are consistent from BG to UB.
So what you are saying that double bass fingerings work on the bass guitar. In rest of talkbass "to each his own" is fair enough.
In the pedagogy section we need to stick to legit information that a professional teacher would feel comfortable passing on to a paying student.
Come on Damon. I think Fabian made a valuable contribution to this thread in that, contrary to what is normally taught, there are many exceptions to the standard method of Double Bass fingerings. I am feeling a slightly fascist viewpoint from your position that seems unreasonable, especially considering you are a established experimental musician who plays with Cecil Taylor. Now, how would you feel if a highly schooled composition teacher told you his concepts were too avant-guarde for beginners? Or, how about this scenario? Claudio Arrau to Cecil Taylor. "Hey, stop using your elbows. Everybody knows you use your fists on the Webern." And, Cecil's response, "Fists? That's way too COCKTAIL!"
There is truth above! My teaching and study of the instrument is VERY traditional despite what I choose to do with it.
There are a lot of decisions made in service of particular music that differ from a basic, tradtional approach to the instrument.
And Cecil's music IS way too advanced for beginners!!
I also have some different approaches to teaching the double in a wider sense vs. giving a lecture on my own music or improvised music in general!
I'm sorry, but I need the point of this explained. IMHO, a basic study plan, (like Simandl), is essential. After that, anything you do that makes you better, and happier, is OK. That includes 3 finger, 4 finger, thumb position fingerings on electric, and electric fingerings on DB. Every time someone says "I do this", or "how about Nhop?", the reply is thats' not right. Not starting anything, just asking what you are trying to express.
oldfretless said:
The point is what you state above. While there are four finger methods and approaches they are advanced and different from bass guitar. Therefor, from a pedagogical standpoint there is no one to one transference of BG technique.
"To each his own" applies to every person that ever wrote an instructional method. It also applies to you and every other educator or performer who has made a decision to play with or teach a certain method.
If you look in the technique discussions on the BG side you will find endless discussions on simandl/3 finger technique vs. 4 finger technique and everything in between. If we are going to be annoyingly strict in the pedagogical sense then you would be well served by establishing what "standard" bass guitar fingerings are before you proceed with blanket statements regarding their effectiveness.
I think that statements like yours discourage young players from making the switch to DB. I am not a full time teacher but when I do teach, most of my students are switching to DB from BG. For these students the double bass is an intimidating and unfamiliar instrument. I have found that establishing some common ground between the two instruments helps make them more comfortable.
How people play and legit teaching concepts are totally different. I don't teach all the things I play, that is for sure! Estabilishing common ground is a good idea, but there are a lot of difficult things that have to be faced when studying the double bass and fingering is one of them.
Plenty of agreement here. Apologies if I came across as attacking you. I very much respect educators who have invested the time and research to become advanced level educators. Personally I choose not to teach double bass students past a point of solid proficiency. Though I studied bass in college and have more than adequate technique for my professional needs I dont feel that my studies left me suited for teaching advanced level students. My schooling was completely performance based and I feel that at a certain level educating needs as much dedicated practice as playing does. My personal approach is just that, too personal to be applicable to a majority of players. I also work from more of a stream of conciousness mindset that doesn't translate well to the order and consistency that teaching at an advanced level requires.
Most of my students are coming to double bass from an electric bass background so I work with them as we mentioned, exploring the similarities and differences between the two instruments and finding a level of comfort with the bass in hand. My goal is to give them enough facility and information to make an educated decision about the path they wish to take with the bass. Once a student has reasonable facility up to the octave I feel it appropriate for them to move on to one of a couple of teachers I know that focus more on an advanced jazz or classical path.
My actual method for these students is reasonably strict Simandl technique to build strong fundamentals. What I have found is that for the most part, the BG students actually have a harder time with the right hand than the left. It sometimes takes weeks to break them from plucking the strings from the side like a bass guitarist. (Oh, and the whining when the blisters start.)
Most of my students are coming to double bass from an electric bass background so I work with them as we mentioned, exploring the similarities and differences between the two instruments and finding a level of comfort with the bass in hand. My goal is to give them enough facility and information to make an educated decision about the path they wish to take with the bass. Once a student has reasonable facility up to the octave I feel it appropriate for them to move on to one of a couple of teachers I know that focus more on an advanced jazz or classical path.
My actual method for these students is reasonably strict Simandl technique to build strong fundamentals. What I have found is that for the most part, the BG students actually have a harder time with the right hand than the left. It sometimes takes weeks to break them from plucking the strings from the side like a bass guitarist. (Oh, and the whining when the blisters start.)
One caution on the open hand, 4 finger, extension, or whatever you want to call it. I have mentioned this quite awhile ago. When using the closed hand - or 1,2 4. - there is a tendency to lock down all fingers on the 4 or 1st and 2nd when using the 1&2 esp. for new players. If you try the same lock down when using the open hand, it really puts a strain on the entire left hand. 1,2,3,4 should be done with a 'rolling action' transferring the strength from one part of the hand to another - never locking down all 4. While the 4th finger is developing, you usually combine 3 and 4 until the 4th gets stronger.
Tom Gale
ASDODB.com
Tom Gale
ASDODB.com
Good advice, when you were teaching how soon did you introduce the "open hand" idea?
Very good question and this is how I handled it. At the time, I was getting private students after they had a year or so of public school classes. Most of the classes were of mixed strings using a universal method book for all the strings together. Not good for the bass student and I didn't want to start them over. That can be very discouraging for the player. I ended up writing my "Practical Studies" assuming the student knew whole, half, quarter and eighth notes and was used to 1st position to begin with. It goes on for 27 pages and then has page one of "Melodic Foundation Studies" to see if the student is ready for the next level. All this is written in 'closed hand' or 1,2,4. NOW - Starting with the next page of the P.S., - after the intro of the M.F.S. - I added an introduction to the "Open Hand Technique". 5 more pages of 1,2,3,4 fundamentals with the option of playing it along with the M.F.S. OR, if the teacher doesn't think the student is ready, it can be done later at any time the teacher thinks the student is ready.
It's been out there 10 years and that approach seems to work.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com
Let me add something. In my Intro to the Open Hand section of the above, I started in 4th pos. (Simandl) on the 1st finger and wrote D 1, Eb 2, F 3&4, etc., etc. Next came D1, E 2&3*, F 3&4** etc. etc. for 2 full pages also crossing over to the D string and eventually including the A also.
*At the beginning, the 3 will need help from the 2 until it develops more strength.
** Ditto the 3 helping the 4.
Hope this makes it clearer.
TG
*At the beginning, the 3 will need help from the 2 until it develops more strength.
** Ditto the 3 helping the 4.
Hope this makes it clearer.
TG
Stick_Player
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I use Simandl when I play the Stick. 
As for DB/EB... I usually use Simandl fingerings on both up to 4th Pos., then four fingers starting at 4th or 5th Pos.
Sometimes four fingers on EB in the lower positions.
No thumb Pos. on EB, though (what for?).
Definitely better to play Simandl fingerings on fretless EB (at least to 4th Pos.), for me.
As for DB/EB... I usually use Simandl fingerings on both up to 4th Pos., then four fingers starting at 4th or 5th Pos.
Sometimes four fingers on EB in the lower positions.
No thumb Pos. on EB, though (what for?).
Definitely better to play Simandl fingerings on fretless EB (at least to 4th Pos.), for me.
That is one way to spot electric bass players doubling, their left hand fingers look ******** twisted and contorted and when you listen they play out of tune. Learn Simandl to have some foundation, and use 4 fingers if you must before thumb position, after that forget that you even have a pinkie. I have an electric bass player friend he plays Jaco stuff inside out but on a DB very painful to listen to.
