Right, the proof is in the pudding. Electric bassists have been trying for years, it hasn't worked. They are not going to track down one of the five or six teachers that teach this and go through what it takes to get it done. Now stop.
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Double Bass Does electric bass fingering work on double bass? No.
- Thread starter damonsmith
- Start date
Right, the proof is in the pudding. Electric bassists have been trying for years, it hasn't worked. They are not going to track down one of the five or six teachers that teach this and go through what it takes to get it done. Now stop.
Right, but nobody is going to "take a couple lessons with Dalla Torre" and get it down. Where plenty of people have taken some lessons and worked through the Simandl book and learned how to play in a solid way.
You can keep pushing, and pushing and continue the p***ing match - I will be here until the thread is closed. The hard fact is it just isn't the reality yet. It is hard enough even now to find a Rabbath teacher, though more possible.
A small handful of great classical players still makes it far less proven than the earlier methods - therefore still less recommendable.
You four-finger zealots are a bit like Steve Jobs betting on flash being obsolete, Jobs may have been right, but Flash outlasted him!
damonsmith said:
I'm not saying that if they don't track down a great teacher, and work hard 1-2-3-4 EB to 1-2-3-4 DB will work. I'm saying if they DO track one down and work hard it'll work. Which I think is what you're saying too. So it seems we are finally edging closer to a resolution.
Forgive the ignorance, but what is the specific difference between 1-2-3-4 fingering on EB and DB? I know on EB you can use four fingers with no pivots in the wrist, just place the hand on the neck. How does it work on DB?
damonsmith said:
I'd imagine that anyone who would be interested enough to find a 1-2-3-4 DB teacher (not easy) would probably take more than "a couple lessons". But that's beside the point. Surely someone who takes just a few lessons with a 1-2-3-4 teacher will be in the same position as someone else who takes a few with a 1-2-4 teacher, assuming they both have the appropriate method books?
damonsmith said:
If 'the reality' you speak if is the same reality that I'm in, then you're mistaken. I promise those videos of players using the method I'm talking about are not fake. They really play 1-2-3-4 on DB. Really. They've learned that method in this plane of existence (to my knowledge). Some of them statistically must have played 1-2-3-4 EB fingerings before. It is a reality. Isn't it? This is getting trippy. Wait. Are those my feet?
damonsmith said:
No. It makes it newer. And harder to find a teacher. That's all.
damonsmith said:
Four finger zealot?? Moi?? I play 1-2-4. And I like it just fine.
I'm not sure this discussion is analogous to Steve Jobs and Flash... But if we're heading down the 'it's a bit like' road, I'm in. Here goes.
You're argument, it's a bit like a chocolate cake, but with a cherry filling and.... No... Sorry. I just can't do it.
Seriously though, you seem to be arguing the same points over and over, that it 'cant be recommended' that it 'isn't proven' and that no EB player is going to bother to do it properly, so it's wrong to let people know that it's possible.
I've already given my counter argument to all these points, so if you've nothing new to bring, I think you've made your opinion clear. Maybe we can get back to some of the more interesting aspects of the thread, i think it's gone beyond and become more interesting than its original intention (which i suppose was to warn EB players of not expecting 1-2-3-4 to work 'instantly'?)
Maybe we should start a new thread titled: 'The possibilities of using EB 1-2-3-4 fingering on DB'? That might lead to a more balanced discussion? Because you declared it impossible in the title, you seem to be taking differing opinions personally, and there's really no need to.
Also, you've got to give me a detailed description of a pi**ing match. Seriously. Please.
Michael Case said:
I described it earlier in the thread. Short version: Imagine your fingers 2,3,4 are spaced at a semitone on the fingerboard of the DB. Now raise your 1st finger as if pointing to someone off to your right. To achieve the final semitone, the LH is very slightly 'rotated' back (similar motion to vibrato), till the 1st finger presses the string.
Even in the short description, I can tell that this IS different from EB four finger technique. On the EB the four fingers *should* sit pretty easily on each fret. Of course some people have small hands and then maybe a technique like you describe would apply to EB.
Honestly 1-2-4 works for me on DB and I'll stick with it. In terms of trying to teach EB players, I'll get them on Simandl.
P***ing match: you and I re-stating the same points until the thread is closed.
I am in.
I don't think the two techniques are related. I think it is best to approach the double bass as a whole new instrument.
I won't concede or agree with your arguments.
I am in.
I don't think the two techniques are related. I think it is best to approach the double bass as a whole new instrument.
I won't concede or agree with your arguments.
Michael Case said:
It's certainly not the same technique, there are lots of differences, but it does keep the same fingering patterns as EB, and it also allows these patterns to be used all over the double bass, like EB.
1-2-4 works for me too! I just think its worth pointing out that this new method works, and while the technique is different, the method does allow for EB fingering on DB. I would not recommend anyone attempt to teach the method or attempt to play it without having spent a long time studying it, just like anything else.
I see your point, but I'll add that even if an EB player studies with a teacher that teaches 1-2-3-4 fingering there will be a huge learning curve. So much so that in the end they will probably still view the two as different instruments and approach them as such. IMHO, the result being that EB fingering and patterns will not really be a part of their playing.
I started out on EB, after about 15 years on EB I took up the DB, I can relate some EB patterns to the DB in my mind only to help me make sense of something. For the most part though, I don't cross pollinate the instruments. Sure I may practice some of the same music on both instruments, but the only thing that transfers is the pitch. I have to forget the DB when I'm practicing/playing EB and EB when I'm on DB.
I don't want to keep this going, I just wanted to add my $.02 to the discussion.
Agreed. "Separate incidents". It is best to learn the whole fingerboard anyway and not think in terms of either 3 or 4 half-step blocks.
You use the best note for the line and the most solid system you have to get it.
The way 1-2-3-4 in the low end works for me is just using a "Billie" concept for the upper notes of a Rabbath pivot.
Mildly useful, but about as far from bass guitar as you can get.
You use the best note for the line and the most solid system you have to get it.
The way 1-2-3-4 in the low end works for me is just using a "Billie" concept for the upper notes of a Rabbath pivot.
Mildly useful, but about as far from bass guitar as you can get.
Michael Case said:
I dont think the learning curve would be any different from a 1-2-4 approach. They are certainly different beasts, but with the same tuning and if you were to use the same fingering, therefore same patterns, I can't see how the thinking WOULDN'T transfer!
Michael Case said:
I hear you. Do you think that the main reason for that is the different fingering systems? With a 1-2-4 DB and 1-2-3-4 EB, I suppose one system is difficult to apply to the other, because physically the notes are in different places - on EB between 2 and 4 is a tone, on DB a semitone.
damonsmith said:
What do you mean by 'learn the whole fingerboard'?
You seem to be missing the point of 1-2-3-4. It's not a 'half-step blocks' type of thinking, it's CHORDAL SHAPES thinking. Just like a pianist can feel where the chords are under his fingers.
damonsmith said:
If your talking about technique, of course nobody could deny the differences. But the 'chordal shapes thinking' is identical. The fingering is identical. That's all I'm saying!
Art, I still think you have to use 1 2 4 as Fabian said earlier, in the lower positions ACROSS. How 1 2 3 4 works that way, I can't figure. That's 2 systems right? And in Thumb position that would be T 1 2 3 right? That's 3 systems. Are you saying there is a system of 1 2 3 4 for the WHOLE fingerboard?
the chordal shapes are there regardless of fingering and we need to understand that for most music. If you have to shift to get to the next chord what is a little shifting and pivoting within a chord?
Again, a REALLY dumb reason to track down one of the few top teachers teaching this technique in the world. Please. Stop.
Regardless of a couple videos, it is still UNPROVEN for wider use. It SEEMS to be working for very select group of hardcore classical students and players who are practicing a ton - and who are playing music they know very well.
We still have yet to see what comes of long term use in terms of physical strain, etc.
I doubt people who have a more modest practice schedule AND play a wider range of music will have as much success with it.
Instead of wasting the time of one of the best teachers in world to retain some stupid "patterns" it is best to re-think the instrument entirely and find a good teacher.
NOTHING will be lost in the end.
Again, you have not added anything that was not covered in the very first post.
ChuckCorbisiero said:
Maybe the term 'system' is confusing- i cant think of a better word- When I say one 'system' I mean that in one position, the same notes relationships are retained throughout the fingerboard - four semitones for the whole fingerboard, instead of three for the lower half, four for thumb position.
In lower positions the semitones are achieved as I described, I've seen it demonstrated and working with shocking fluidity. It is slightly less graceful in half position, IMO, but it's possible.
damonsmith said:
Yes they are there, and if course we have to know how to play and think chordally. You can shift and pivot all you want, all I'm doing is drawing attention to the fact that this is possible.
damonsmith said:
I think finding one of the top teachers in the world is a great idea, regardless of the reason. If someone uses the reason of one-finger-per-semitone, why not.
damonsmith said:
How many students, for how many years of playing does it take to be, in your mind 'PROVEN'? If it can be played, and can be taught successfully, that's proof that it works. It's not only classical students that practice a ton, and know 'their' music very well.
damonsmith said:
Ah. So now it's the long term health aspects that are concerning you. I see. How many years of playing with this system makes it 'long term'? 5 years? 10? 15? 20? 30?
damonsmith said:
You need to define what you consider success. If someone is looking to play the bass at a low level, just for fun, why not take a few lessons with a great 1-2-3-4 teacher, if you want to?
As for your 'wider range of music' argument? What would restrict someone from applying the same fingering patterns to different genres? Last time I checked we were all using the same notes.
damonsmith said:
Right, because really great teachers hate getting interested beginners? Come on. I don't think the patterns are stupid. It takes a long time to get them working, it takes work. And I've really benefitted from them even using a 1-2-4/t-1-2-3 system. Nothing stupid about them.
Best to rethink entirely? Why? What's wrong with retaining the fingering system?
If you want to learn with a great teacher, there's nothing with studying with a great 1-2-3-4 or a great 1-2-4 teacher. There's nothing wrong with learning French bow or German bow. There's nothing wrong with playing the bass while wearing a bra on your head, if that's what you're into.
