Does size matter?

[badinage]

I bias toward larger, as long as it's convenient for me and everyone else.

It never would have occurred to me to have a problem with that.

 

[Greywoulf]

Well I don't like the way the poll is worded; ~vote this way for the win! -Sorta directive, innit?
But I will vote for A anyway..
~Because I'm over 80...
~And there's too many folks think we geezers don't really count?
But I still love bass and everything about it as much as I did 30 years ago; -playing [and completely delighted with] my bass guitars, amps, cabs, TB, ~all of it!!
{~Although lessons have become more difficult... ~I blame that damn Long Covid!} ~~

 

[Old Fart]

Yes, size matters. But other things matter at least as much as size. That's what she told me, anyway.

 

[Al Kraft]

Meeting my tone goal and volume requirements are all that matter to me. Available technology defines the options I have to do that. I always include convenience in my gear choices to the extent it doesn't mean a compromise in my tone goal and volume requirements. So if it sounds good, smaller and lighter is better IMO.

 

[Snert]

Speaking of IMD, I've been wondering about using an isobaric alignment lately for more linear excursion and to make an 18" sealed cab that's not too enormous.

Isobaric reduces cab volume, but not non linear characteristics that much as it's still dependent upon the motor linearity of the internal driver and the driver arrangement (clamshell may reduce even order non linearities some). The cab volume reduction never turns out as much as theory suggests, distortion reduction, if any, will be minimal and you double the driver weight, cost and reduce efficiency. If you clamshell the drivers, you'd better be sure the driver is mechanically quiet at higher excursions, as lots aren't, you then have an exposed motor assembly or waste volume 'enclosing' it.

Isobaric's only advantage is when you need a smaller enclosure. I'm finalising an iso design for a monitor now (someone else's spec) and have done a parallel development that's slightly (~25%) larger with both drivers external that has better performance.

 

[ZackStewart]

There were a lot of published tests from high-end manufacturers showing significantly lower distortion with isobaric alignment. Less 2nd harmonic distortion and greater symmetrical linearity. I know there are reddit theories to the contrary. I guess we all design best in alignments we are most familiar with.
Anyhow, this is the "does size matter" thread and I mentioned isobaric because of the reduction in cabinet size.

 

[Snert]

There were a lot of published tests from high-end manufacturers showing significantly lower distortion with isobaric alignment.

So post some links to back up the claims.
I do my own design and measurement, so I speak from my own personal experience.

I guess we all design best in alignments we are most familiar with.

I've done ported, in various orders, sealed, IB, OB, 4th and 6th order bandpass, front loaded horns and isobaric. Pretty familiar with the lot of them.

 

[agedhorse]

Isobaric designs have benefits and weaknesses, but the “outrageous” claims need to be tempered a bit by reality.

1. It is often stated that the size of the enclosure is reduced by 50%. While it’s true for Vb, it ignores the additional volume required to enclose the second driver.

2. While it’s often stated that there is no efficiency penalty, and this is true compared to a single driver, there is no increase in maximum SPL because of the relationship between Xmax and the single driver radiating surface. The basic benefit is by using a two drivers in an isobaric configuration, trading off two drivers (motor strength plus other parameters) to achieve similar performance in a smaller (not 1/2 the size) with a maximum SPL about 3dB less than an equivalent 2 driver enclosure with the same F3 that will have Vb of twice but an enclosure size about 1.5 times larger.

It’s just another trade off rooted in the limitations of the physical world.

 

[ZackStewart]

you guys are a trip.

 

[agedhorse]

you guys are a trip.

Who and what part "are a trip"?

 

[Greywoulf]

Who and what part "are a trip"?

Well I for one did not understand almost a single word posted about 'isobarics' in several recent posts. ~I guess I'm not much of an audio scientist, just a simple bass player.. ~~

 

[agedhorse]

Well I for one did not understand almost a single word posted about 'isobarics' in several recent posts. ~I guess I'm not much of an audio scientist, just a simple bass player.. ~~

There are some who are interested in this topic and want to learn some factual aspects about the advantages (and disadvantages) of isobaric designs.

 

[5StringBlues]

I'm just a simple country lawyer....

 

[Greywoulf]

There are some who are interested in this topic and want to learn some factual aspects about the advantages (and disadvantages) of isobaric designs.

Of course... And you don't hafta be thin-skinned or defensive about it either! But you'll also probably get some good natured ribbing about it too from us less intelligent types...

Anyway, "isobaric" sounds like the name of a new Hyundai model. (As in, ~Introducing the newww Hyundai Isobaric, -Now with Maximum SPL!)

 

[badinage]

Let's do bandpass next !!

 

[agedhorse]

Of course... And you don't hafta be thin-skinned or defensive about it either! But you'll also probably get some good natured ribbing about it too from us less intelligent types...

Anyway, "isobaric" sounds like the name of a new Hyundai model. (As in, ~Introducing the newww Hyundai Isobaric, -Now with Maximum SPL!)

And I'm not thin skinned about anything, 40 years of touring pro audio thickens the skin.

 

[ga_edwards]

Whilst physics would dictate the smaller cabinet possible without FOH support. I chose "A". I want as small a solution as possible, and preferable one I can easily carry with one hand without causing back pain or aggrevating my tennis elbow.

Going off on a complete tangent. We used to use backline to fill the room and PA for vocals. After years of me nagging we now put everything through our PA. However, it's only a couple of DXR12 speakers and no sub. We're thinking about going ampless, but I've told them I still need to use my speaker until we get a sub, as our current solution is not enough to completely drop the backline (I use a Headrush FRFR 112 for monitoring and help fill out the reduced low end in the PA and the two guitarists use DXR10 speakers for personal monitoring/backline).

What would be a perfect solution for me is a compact (as much as physics allows) 12" powered speaker that could be used in FRFR mode for rehearsals as a bass monitor. Or could be switched to sub-woofer mode as part of a modular PA. I'd be more than happy to go ampless then.

I wonder if such a thing exists?

 

[calypsocoral302]

My small set up is:

• Eden TN226 Class D amp. It puts out 225-watts rms into 4Ω, has a very flexible EQ system and a great auto-compressor too. Bought it used for $275 with shoulder bag specifically to play a small brew pub where we hosted Friday Night Open Mic events over 40-times a year.
• Eden EX-112 cab that will handle 300-watts rms; is very compact because it uses a whizzer cone for high-mids and highs instead of a separate tweeter horn, and it weighs 31-lbs. (uses Neodymium speaker). Paid $269 for it new. Great sounding little 112 that is about $600 less than the Eden D-series, without a lot of difference in the sound.

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Most of the venues I play are medium to large venues and I use m DNS-210 cab with my DNA-800 amp. I can play all my indoor venues with that set-up because it is plenty LOUD:

• DNA-800 is a 4.7-lb class D amp putting out 800-watts rms into either 4Ω or 2Ω. Has a simplified, but very musical EQ system with Bass at 35Hz, low-mid at 500Hz, high-mid at 2KHz, and treble for everything about 2KHz. Also has a nice shape control that is much more gradual and far more usable than the Enhance control David put one his Eden amps. It also has a great built-in compressor that has adjustable threshold and ratio controls. Get a great sound out of it and it is really light!

Street price is $799 I got a special price on it in 2021 because I'm a member of the DNA Endorsing Artist Group. Wasn't as good as a dealer gets but was a nice discount. Plus, the warehouse was out of stock and David had enough parts to make one for me and a couple of other Endorsing Artist, so he built one for me and signed it.
View attachment 4765904
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I run that into my DNS-210 cab and that's all I need for any indoor venue now.

• The DNS-210 will handle 700-watts rms, weighs 51-lbs, and is ungodly LOUD. At 51-lbs, it's not the lightest 210 out there but it is lighter than David's Eden XLT and XST cabs. Better yet though is that I no longer need to use my 410 cab on any indoor venues. So a 51-lb cab that replaces a 79 to 100-lb 410 cab for medium and large venues is a good weight savings. Sound is super clear and clean and if you play bass chords you can easily distinguish each of the three notes. It has a really low (34Hz) and tight bottom end.

Did I mention it gets LOUD. I have to be careful at large venues to stay out of its 60° cone of dispersion because it can get painfully loud at those if I get within 3 or 4-feet of it. I bought my DNS-210 at an Endorsing Artist price in 2019 when I was accepted in the group. Street price is right around $849.

Picture below is of my DNS-210 with my 800-watt Eden amp that I used to run it bridged at 800-watts into it. Big reason I went of the DNA-800 as my main amp is because my big Eden amp weighs about 36-lbs in its rack. I can get the same sound out of both of them and 4.7-lbs. is really light and easy to move.

View attachment 4765914​

And finally, for outdoors and Music Festivals, I'll run either my DNA-800 or my Eden WT-500/800 into my DNS-410 cab.

I bought that cab in 2015 expecting it to be the last cab I'd need to buy and then found out small venues would freak out if I rolled it in. Nonetheless, this is an amazing sounding cab. Everything I said about the sound of my DNS-210 is true about this cab. It doesn't go quite as low as the DNS-210 though the 410 goes down to a fundamental of 37Hz and the 210 will go down to 34Hz. They both are clear, clean, articulate and LOUD with a very low and tight bottom end. It will handle 1400-watts rms though I get told to turn down at Music Festivals long before I even get close to putting 800-watts through it. Good news about that is that I will never need to lug around an 810 cab. In 2015, I paid $1,000 for it and now they seem to run around $1,149 to $1,249.

View attachment 4765921​

And if I really want to get carried away, I can run the stack below using my DNA-800 amp.

• I just had the DNS-210 plugged in at this venue. Was first gig with it and wasn't sure it would handle an "almost large" venue. Knew the 410 would handle it and I could unplug the 210 and plug the 410 in within a couple of seconds. My 410 ended up being an amp stand that night as the 210 was more than enough.

View attachment 4765923​

Interestingly, right now is a *great* time to buy a DNA amplifier.

As of yet, you can still get a DNA-800 for $799 on Reverb.

Compare this to Genzler, Mesa, and GK-- all fine amplifier companies. But DNA offers more bang for the buck right now. And keep in mind, DNA is a small, boutique company.