I'd say the #5 (G#) is tasty but I don't understand how the B natural would sound good sandwiched between Bb and C?
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Dominant 7th Chords
- Thread starter Mushroo
- Start date
I'd say the #5 (G#) is tasty but I don't understand how the B natural would sound good sandwiched between Bb and C?
I used to think like that about v7 chords and the like. Why, I even got into fights about what all those terms meant. But thats when I was getting my theory from a book. Later, I started getting my theory from my ear.... it makes more sense that way.
But more on point. In the Blues the I7 chord functions as it does because there is a momentary modulation to the IV harmony... but it only lasts a little while.
In the end, music theory is all about flow of energy (tension and release), beauty of combination of tones, density and color. When thinking of sounds in this way the choices that Palestrina, Bach, Haydn, Beethoven made fall right in line with Brahms, Mahler, Copland, Ives and further on with Reich, Adams, Stockhausen, Boulez, Cage and any other composer now or in the future. The aesthetic changes, but the road is still the same.
But more on point. In the Blues the I7 chord functions as it does because there is a momentary modulation to the IV harmony... but it only lasts a little while.
In the end, music theory is all about flow of energy (tension and release), beauty of combination of tones, density and color. When thinking of sounds in this way the choices that Palestrina, Bach, Haydn, Beethoven made fall right in line with Brahms, Mahler, Copland, Ives and further on with Reich, Adams, Stockhausen, Boulez, Cage and any other composer now or in the future. The aesthetic changes, but the road is still the same.
7th chords would include any tertian "tetrad", not just dominant 7ths.
Not all dominants are V7 chords, melodic (jazz) minor has a secondary dominant or IV7 chord, for example. Hence, its 4th mode is also known as lydian dominant.
Dominant chords don't have to resolve to the tonic, but once resolution occurs the movement is very strong and sounds "complete". Dominant chords also tend to resolve to the relative P4 of that chord. This can be used to modulate using a secondary dominant where the relative 4th of the chord is a non-scalar tone. Once again the obvious example is melodic (jazz) minor where there is a IV7 chord that will resolve to the b7 of the scale, even though the b7 is a non-scalar tone.
Some scales that are commonly used over dominant chords are; superlocrian also known as the altered scale, half-whole diminished, lydian dominant. I think wholetone and spanish phrygian are interesting scales to use over them too.
Not all dominants are V7 chords, melodic (jazz) minor has a secondary dominant or IV7 chord, for example. Hence, its 4th mode is also known as lydian dominant.
Dominant chords don't have to resolve to the tonic, but once resolution occurs the movement is very strong and sounds "complete". Dominant chords also tend to resolve to the relative P4 of that chord. This can be used to modulate using a secondary dominant where the relative 4th of the chord is a non-scalar tone. Once again the obvious example is melodic (jazz) minor where there is a IV7 chord that will resolve to the b7 of the scale, even though the b7 is a non-scalar tone.
Some scales that are commonly used over dominant chords are; superlocrian also known as the altered scale, half-whole diminished, lydian dominant. I think wholetone and spanish phrygian are interesting scales to use over them too.
Ah I see we started something!
If someone said to me DOminant 7th in C then I would play G7 (G-D-B-Fnatural)
But If someone said play a G7 chord I wouldn't assume we were in C.
The addition of a 7th does not always mean a modulation either but it is a tool to use when beginning a modulation.
If someone said to me DOminant 7th in C then I would play G7 (G-D-B-Fnatural)
But If someone said play a G7 chord I wouldn't assume we were in C.
The addition of a 7th does not always mean a modulation either but it is a tool to use when beginning a modulation.
That is a logical step but there is an error. What about a dominant function chord on the way to a half cadence like in The Star Spangled Banner (I keep citing that song)? D7 > G which in C major is V7/V > V (half cadence).
Edit: Let me clarify this before the flaming arrows fly: Within the context of the melodic phrase D7 is a dominant function chord. Within the context of the OVERALL harmonic analysis in relation to the tonal center D7 (V7/V) is a subdominant chord.
I understand where you guys are coming from by insisting that a Dominant 7th chord is always a V chord. That is indeed its function in the context of traditional diatonic harmony.
But in popular music there are countless instances of a 7th (1-3-5-b7) chord showing up in places that are not the V of the song key. Yes , it usually functions as a temporary V for the next chord, but not always.
I just don't want the OP to get the impression that if he's creating a song that begins in C he is somehow forbidden from, or would sound bad playing any 7th chord besides G7. Technically, you would be going outside of the key by doing so, but by no means will it always sound completely wrong.
Just another case of learning the rules so you can break them, i suppose.
But in popular music there are countless instances of a 7th (1-3-5-b7) chord showing up in places that are not the V of the song key. Yes , it usually functions as a temporary V for the next chord, but not always.
I just don't want the OP to get the impression that if he's creating a song that begins in C he is somehow forbidden from, or would sound bad playing any 7th chord besides G7. Technically, you would be going outside of the key by doing so, but by no means will it always sound completely wrong.
Just another case of learning the rules so you can break them, i suppose.
Yes, you can play the V7 of the ___ to keep things moving along & make it more interesting, and dominant 7th chords can be used to change keys, though in that case it is functioning as a V7 - the V7 of the new key or new chord.
The concept of "key" is really a lot more flexible than most people give it credit for. Especially in a minor key, the 6ths and 7ths end up all over the place depending, seemingly, on the weather. The spelling of a key is more of a guideline than a hard & fast rule. Just look at all the accidentals in sheet music and you'll see where the composers were going "out" of the key.
This is what I meant in the other thread about most of the music theory we get being reverse engineered from classical & jazz musicians. Plenty of music theory is really the analysis what musicians & composers have been doing for years and applying rules.
The problem is that we then get the rules & very little of the WHY behind them and think the rules are, well, the RULES when really they're just guidelines that say "hey, this is some stuff that we've found that works."
The concept of "key" is really a lot more flexible than most people give it credit for. Especially in a minor key, the 6ths and 7ths end up all over the place depending, seemingly, on the weather. The spelling of a key is more of a guideline than a hard & fast rule. Just look at all the accidentals in sheet music and you'll see where the composers were going "out" of the key.
This is what I meant in the other thread about most of the music theory we get being reverse engineered from classical & jazz musicians. Plenty of music theory is really the analysis what musicians & composers have been doing for years and applying rules.
The problem is that we then get the rules & very little of the WHY behind them and think the rules are, well, the RULES when really they're just guidelines that say "hey, this is some stuff that we've found that works."
In general when dealing with chords you have to step away and look at the big picture where they are going and sometime even where they came from. Dominants are good indicator of key most the time, but they could be a tritone sub or part of a cycle of dominants then they aren't a good indicator of key.
As for minor I know from a Jazz POV minor gets used as a hybrid of all the minor scales pulling notes from all the minors as needed for harmony and improv.
As for minor I know from a Jazz POV minor gets used as a hybrid of all the minor scales pulling notes from all the minors as needed for harmony and improv.
