Don't teach this ole dog any new tricks!

[Neil Folkard]

My main point was clearly about clutching on to something clearly obsolete (HD DVD).

And streaming versus finding online or downloading are all fundamentally the same thing in the context of being the alternative to owning a commercially produced physical media copy of something. And that's just the analogy. The real topic here is perpetual versus subscription software licensing (and the absurd lengths a person might go to in order to continue to use what they own when the entire hardware and OS stack that supports it is now obsolete and unsupported).

And my point was, I thought clearly, that young people are almost always one step ahead, of what most older people consider the current way of doing things.

Also, the analogy of being fundamentally the same is flawed, in the sense that, if you download something, you own it. If I pay for a download from bandcamp, I own the file, so then, and here's the key, I can rip a CD-R from it (ancient technology) so I can listen to it in my car, on a CD player (ancient technology) in my car.

 

[DigitalMan]

And my point was, I thought clearly, that young people are almost always one step ahead, of what most older people consider the current way of doing things.

Also, the analogy of being fundamentally the same is flawed, in the sense that, if you download something, you own it. If I pay for a download from bandcamp, I own the file, so then, and here's the key, I can rip a CD-R from it (ancient technology) so I can listen to it in my car, on a CD player (ancient technology) in my car.

Songs don't need to be updated when the underlying platform is updated the same way that software is. When a company releases software 1.0 and users install it on OS 1.0 and hardware 1.0, what we know is that users eventually move to OS 2.0 and hardware 2.0 and expect software 1.0 to be updated to software 2.0 to continue to function.

A one time payment to purchase software 1.0 doesn't cover the cost of developing software 2.0.

The industry therefore has moved away from big upfront costs and fractional maintenance costs toward a more consistent revenue stream and I would argue sometimes better value for money, especially if your need for software fluctuates from one year to the next.

Denying the unique characteristics of the operating model leads to imperfect analogies.

 

[toastw]

Yeah, the analogies do break down. It's similar to -- how many times have you bought Star Wars? I bought it on laser disk. I bought it on VHS. I bought it on DVD. I bought it on Blu-ray. And now they want me to get a subscription to Disney+ so I can watch Star Wars whenever I want.

But I could watch Star Wars whenever I want on laser disk. The problem is, TV's don't come with the connection to hook my laser disk player up to my TV anymore. The laser disk is fine. The laser disk player is fine. The TV is fine. But they've made it impossible to watch Star Wars unless I have a Disney+ subscription.

 

[DigitalMan]

Yeah, the analogies do break down. It's similar to -- how many times have you bought Star Wars? I bought it on laser disk. I bought it on VHS. I bought it on DVD. I bought it on Blu-ray. And now they want me to get a subscription to Disney+ so I can watch Star Wars whenever I want.

But I could watch Star Wars whenever I want on laser disk. The problem is, TV's don't come with the connection to hook my laser disk player up to my TV anymore. The laser disk is fine. The laser disk player is fine. The TV is fine. But they've made it impossible to watch Star Wars unless I have a Disney+ subscription.

Disney didn't make you buy a new TV that doesn't hook up to your laser disk. Disney does make new ways to watch Star Wars that are compatible with the new TV you chose to buy. And they've spent a lot of time and effort to re-master the movie to meet the improvements in visual and audio capabilities that your TV has.

 

[porkynuggets]

Mostly just venting, but I bet some of you guys are in a boat like mine.

I hate "subscriptions." I like owning my software just as much as I like owning my gear. That and familiarity are two strong drivers for why I still run Pro Tools 8 at home, through a Digi 003R.

My Mac is on its last leg. The good news is: I have the CD/DVDs of both the Pro Tools software and the Snow Leopard operating system to run it on. The bad news is, it's getting harder and harder to find legacy computers to use ... and newer computers do NOT want to downgrade to old operating systems and old software. I spent HOURS last night trying to wipe the newer OS off a Macbook Pro and install my old-ass Snow Leopard on it (I eventually got it to work ... you have to jump through so many hoops like disabling the clock, telling it it's 2011, disabling the Wi-Fi so it won't have access to a working clock ...) ... and now tonight I'm gonna hafta bend over backwards to get my Pro Tools working on it. But even before that, I hafta replace the dead battery on this old laptop so it won't crap out on me running Pro Tools.

So much easier playing with vintage instruments and even vintage amps than vintage computer hardware and software.

Time to go back to analog

 

[Major Seven]

Time to go back to analog

Auto pay too. Like giving the key to your house. Come in any time and take what you want.

 

[DigitalMan]

Auto pay too. Like giving the key to your house. Come in any time and take what you want.

25 years ago I'd spend a few hours each month doing bills.

Today I spend zero time doing bills.

So far, no one has come along and helped themselves to my money without permission.

And there is plenty of recourse to immediately fix it if they do.

Stealing checking account numbers by intercepting snail mail is a bigger problem.

 

[retslock]

I keep my old Snow Leopard Mac with Logic offline. It also contains the Adobe Indesign/Photoshop/Illustrator suite. Cost is the main reason. I simply can't afford to buy a new Mac and the software lease system is unrealistic for the amount of use it gets.
I know one day it will die but I won't replace it. I'll have to find other ways to manage. Such is the way of digital technology. The small time user is not in their business model.

 

[retslock]

So far, no one has come along and helped themselves to my money without permission.

Yet.

 

[DigitalMan]

Yet.

It's as if my very next sentence didn't exist.

I think we've firmly established that the software subscription model doesn't work well for a very particular demographic.

I'm sure there's a software executive somewhere fretting about how to capture all that missing revenue.

Maybe they'll release Claude on vinyl or something.

 

[vvvmmm]

So far, no one has come along and helped themselves to my money without permission.

It may be that you have been lucky, it may be that you missed it.

I got hit three times in two years, once onna personal account, twice onna business account.

Yes, my money, which I lost the direct use of for a week each time, was reimbursed.

In my case it was related to cards (Amazon was the access point), which were cancelled and took a week to be re-issued, during which time I was without that option to use.

Time, effort, aggravation also have value, and the effort to get the cash returned I consider akin to money taken, "without my permission".

May you never have the experience - one issue was under a grand, one about three, one approached ten grand.

 

[toastw]

Disney didn't make you buy a new TV that doesn't hook up to your laser disk. Disney does make new ways to watch Star Wars that are compatible with the new TV you chose to buy. And they've spent a lot of time and effort to re-master the movie to meet the improvements in visual and audio capabilities that your TV has.

I don't need the ring they added around the death star when it blew up. I don't need the edit to change it so that Han didn't shoot Greedo first. I don't need a scene where a Hut walks in the background just so you can flex a little computer generated graphics muscle. The movie was fine before the "improvements."

 

[DigitalMan]

It may be that you have been lucky, it may be that you missed it.

I got hit three times in two years, once onna personal account, twice onna business account.

Yes, my money, which I lost the direct use of for a week each time, was reimbursed.

In my case it was related to cards (Amazon was the access point), which were cancelled and took a week to be re-issued, during which time I was without that option to use.

Time, effort, aggravation also have value, and the effort to get the cash returned I consider akin to money taken, "without my permission".

May you never have the experience - one issue was under a grand, one about three, one approached ten grand.

You got hit three times due to bill pay fraud?

Or was it fraudulent use of your checking or debit card number?

 

[DigitalMan]

I don't need the ring they added around the death star when it blew up. I don't need the edit to change it so that Han didn't shoot Greedo first. I don't need a scene where a Hut walks in the background just so you can flex a little computer generated graphics muscle. The movie was fine before the "improvements."

That's a totally different thing. All of that was the done by George Lucas in the 90's before Disney and before streaming. It had nothing to do with how the content is delivered or what devices support it.

It has no bearing on the conversation whatsoever.

 

[vvvmmm]

All was apparently the result of card transactions through Amazon because those were the earliest fraud buys, altho' the fraud included others paying their phone bill, movie rental, fancy shoes from a cuppla shoe stores, and primarily Amazon purchases, including electronics like computers, a TV. The near-10K (mighta been 8+K?, at the very end of last year/beginning of this) was the last and discovered within a cuppla weeks, the second episode took me a month to ID last summer, and the first went back about 5 months from when I discovered it last Spring, so I lost a cuppla hundred dollars for not discovering it within 90 days - I think those figures are correct. At last once Amazon or the bank caught it before I did.

Part of the pattern is 3-4 or more small purchases, say under US$20. When they get away with that, they start buying bigger. One might not notice a hundred buck over a month or two. (I hate shopping, buy most everything other than groceries - and some of them - online for delivery.) And if they then move quickly, they can run up a few thousand between billing cycles.

One frustrating thing is, even after the reports, the victim gets no follow-up; I mean, I did get the money back other than as above), but never heard re any investigation or prosecution.

This stuff happened to me twice about 5-6 years ago, as well, once after a local grocery store purchase, the other I don't know how they got the number. I changed banks for un-related reasons after the first two, still use the same one after the second three, but I don't believe any blame lies with the banks - someone got the card numbers and enuff verifying info to do it. The issue re banks is unavoidable in that it takes 2-3 weeks to get a new card, altho' I pitched a b. the last time and they "overnighted" the replacement (which still took a cuppla days) because business account.

As a cost, you can add a cuppla hours on the phone between Amazon, the banks, the investigators ... The last time there was about 20 or even 30 purchases in a week span, was why the number was so big; when you buy on Monday it may not hit the bank until Thurs or so ... And then there was the issue of separating the legit buys from the frauds, particularly because Amz bills through a cuppla different entities, apparently involving whether Amz is the seller, or its an entity selling through Amz, and mebbe other criteria. That was important to head it all off with stop-payments through the bank; actual refunds took a week or two.

And FWIW, the local store purchase were inna cuppla different Upper Midwest states, which I was told may mean my EI was sold, altho' the criminals may have just traveled or used family and friends for their thefts.

As another consequence, I now use 2-factor verify much more - guaranteed to add time and aggro to purchases, and actually chills my spending.

 

[Major Seven]

It may be that you have been lucky, it may be that you missed it.

I got hit three times in two years, once onna personal account, twice onna business account.

Yes, my money, which I lost the direct use of for a week each time, was reimbursed.

In my case it was related to cards (Amazon was the access point), which were cancelled and took a week to be re-issued, during which time I was without that option to use.

Time, effort, aggravation also have value, and the effort to get the cash returned I consider akin to money taken, "without my permission".

May you never have the experience - one issue was under a grand, one about three, one approached ten grand.

Part of the game is that you might miss it. 100 attempts and one score probably make it worth it for them. Especially if there are no real consequences.
Another tactic is/was make it hard to unsubscribe and make a few bucks while you scramble to disconnect. (you basically loan them the money for a while).

It doesn't seem to add convenience to me. The time you used to spend paying bills is just now transferred to spending time
scrutinizing the monthly statements.

 

[toastw]

For anyone curious, the last piece of my puzzle arrived last night -- a cable with a 6-pin firewire connector on one end and a 9-pin firewire connector on the other end. I've successfully convinced the laptop (which hopefully will never connect to the internet) that it's the year 2012. All my plugins are successfully loaded, and I'm back up in running -- faster than I was before!

You guys did convince me that when I do have to finally bite the bullet and modernize my computer and digital audio interface, I'm going to give Reaper a try. It looks pretty slick!

 

[definenredefine]

For anyone curious, the last piece of my puzzle arrived last night -- a cable with a 6-pin firewire connector on one end and a 9-pin firewire connector on the other end. I've successfully convinced the laptop (which hopefully will never connect to the internet) that it's the year 2012. All my plugins are successfully loaded, and I'm back up in running -- faster than I was before!

You guys did convince me that when I do have to finally bite the bullet and modernize my computer and digital audio interface, I'm going to give Reaper a try. It looks pretty slick!

I'm not the most experienced with DAWs, but Reaper seems to be pretty full featured. It comes with some...I guess more basic effects built in, too, like EQ and compression. Plus, as has been pointed out a few times in this thread, you can trial it pretty much indefinitely.