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Double Bass dots on double bass

#41
ztpbassman said:
Real upright players don't need them, I reckon, and now when I play basses without dots I find I can mostly play in tune without them. But to jump to a high Bb without having a marker is too dangerous ground for me.
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If you can find the G harmonic with your thumb consistently, you should theoretically be able to find B-flat as well. Put your thumb down on the G harmonic, then slap your second finger down without thinking too much about it.

This idea is what could be called "muscular fretting," and it's directly related to the Rabbath positions (those being divided by the natural harmonics of the open strings). If you can comfortably find the harmonics without searching, the rest of the notes sort of fill themselves in.

If you've found a way to play comfortably with dots, I'm all for it. There are many paths to sounding good.
 
#42
lunarpollen said:
I use a broad triangular pencil marking at each edge of the front of the fingerboard to correspond where the single dots would customarily fall on a bass guitar, and a rectangular pencil marking where the double dots would be, up to the octave position. I know they aren't precise; they are just rough guides to give my extremely visual brain a sense of portioning and overall proportion. And if note positions are different because of temperature fluctuation, visual angle, imprecise pencilling, etc., my brain picks up on that very quickly and makes adjustments.

And even though they have frets, I would be lost without any dots on my guitars; in fact, I have a much easier time with dots like on Brian May's guitar (• 3rd fret, • 5th, • • 7th, • 9th, and • • • 12th, for both octaves), and I wish all my other guitars (bass and standard) had that pattern. Invalid Link Removed

It's just how my brain is wired for almost everything I do, always looking for or imagining visual reference points and landmarks, seeing/imagining shapes, zones, contours, for eveything (even for non-visual/abstract concepts). While I think actual guitar-style dots would look tacky on a double bass, other forms of markings don't bother me so much. And pencil graphite doesn't really stand out very much at a casual glance.
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Me too. I'm a very right-brained visual person...
 
#43
PaulCannon said:
If you can find the G harmonic with your thumb consistently, you should theoretically be able to find B-flat as well. Put your thumb down on the G harmonic, then slap your second finger down without thinking too much about it.

This idea is what could be called "muscular fretting," and it's directly related to the Rabbath positions (those being divided by the natural harmonics of the open strings). If you can comfortably find the harmonics without searching, the rest of the notes sort of fill themselves in.

If you've found a way to play comfortably with dots, I'm all for it. There are many paths to sounding good.
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Agreed. I think a pencil line or two is not the end of the world. I have a couple natural blemishes I use from time to time as partial guides.

Marking a really tough shift or playing with the tuner on early on when you have gotten yourself in over your head on a gig or especially in the studio is reasonable.
There are times when the music at hand needs to come first and there are times when your study of the instrument needs to come first. We bass players tend to get thrown into gigs over our heads often. Using them for practice would certainly not be a benefit.

In the end the dots/marks are not going to be too accurate as Paul said and they are not any sort of long term solution.
 
#44
I really don't think it will hurt anyone to use dots at the octave and fifth (2nd and 3rd partials). After seeing Edgar I started putting a drop of white-out at the octave between the D & A strings. After a while it wore off and I never replaced it. I would predict that you wont continue to use them after you get a feel for where those notes are. If you have too many dots I think you start to watch the dots too much, subconsciously. This will imperil your ability to read music, and that will be bad. You definitely want to keep your eyes on the page and not on the bass.
JS
 
#45
DSC02137.jpg
 
#46
I've been playing DB for 42 years. Never had dots. I play in thumb position a lot.Reasonably in tune. After seeing the dots on Edgar's bass, I thought "why the f%#k not"? I would really only benefit from them at a few points in thumb position. When I studied bass with Joe Guastafeste with the Chicago Symphony he had a pencil mark on the high B on the G string. I forget which piece, but one of the Strauss pieces requires nailing a high B out of nowhere. I am comfortable going from low positions up to a B flat above the octave on the G string. But If I had to hit a C or a D directly from a lower position I'm sure that I would be VERY close. But VERY close sounds like s%#t. I avoid going from a lower position directly to notes above a certain point. If I can work my way up there, fine. I think that I would try new things if I had a few dots. In lower positions I agree that it is preferrable to get the tactile sense of where the notes are from the neck and heel. And, of course, wherever the dots are is not perfectly in tune. But nothing is. We make immediate small adjustments to bring ANY note in tune. I play 5 string fretless EB. I feel much more in tune being able to make immediate tiny adjustments so I always feel in tune. I hate playing fretted bass. They always sound out of tune to me. (theoretically they are) I'm lazy as far as retuning when I'm playing. My hands automatically adjust to what my ears hear and make adjustments. A friend will sit in on my bass and be shocked at the fact that my bass drifted out of tune. But I play it in tune. I'm not proud of being a lazy dumbass, but I do play in tune. Unless you watch a Youtube video of me playing live on my EUB at the beginning of a tour. It's an inch shorter string length and a D neck. (my bass is an E flat) I sound very in tune until I get above the B flat on the G string. Hmmmm---- maybe the dots might be a good idea!
 
#49
Maybe it is just my experience, or maybe I had Mr. Miyagi (1984 Karate Kid) as my instructor... No dots or tuners were allowed. I needed to learn proper finger distance and positions along the entire fingerboard (still taking instructions, so not so past tense). I needed to synchronize timing and tonality with the piano (my instructor played). I also needed to do a lot of clapping exercises (rhythm exercises) and exercises in front of the mirror both with and without my bass (posture and angle of wrists, etc.). Homework involved recording myself to assess progress. IMHO, I still think the moment one requires dots, maybe they need to seek out a qualified instructor to find out what else they need help with playing the db. Again, just my opinion.
 
#50
Drerio
I don't know if you read my post. Yeah, yeah, I learned the same way. Just curious-- If you're playing a low F on the E string and have to immediately play an E flat in thumb position on the G string will you nail it perfectly in tune? I always entertained the same macho bs that one was a wimp to rely on something like dots. When I saw them on Edgar's bass I thought " if one of the finest players on the planet finds them helpful". I agree that in the lower positions it is critical to learn the tactile sense but when way up there in thumb position if dots will help intonation or allow one to play things that one wouldn't try without, who cares ? It reminds me of the guys that would say "in my day we didn't need amplifiers". Yeah--apparently they didn't need to be heard, either.
 
#51
Mike Arnopol said:
Drerio
I don't know if you read my post. Yeah, yeah, I learned the same way. Just curious-- If you're playing a low F on the E string and have to immediately play an E flat in thumb position on the G string will you nail it perfectly in tune? I always entertained the same macho bs that one was a wimp to rely on something like dots. When I saw them on Edgar's bass I thought " if one of the finest players on the planet finds them helpful". I agree that in the lower positions it is critical to learn the tactile sense but when way up there in thumb position if dots will help intonation or allow one to play things that one wouldn't try without, who cares ? It reminds me of the guys that would say "in my day we didn't need amplifiers". Yeah--apparently they didn't need to be heard, either.
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I read your post... I was simply offering my opinion. I don't know if it is macho bs, it was simply what I was expected to do during lessons. I think what my instructor was trying to get me to do was learn with my ears as well as using my eyes (music sheet). I came from a bass guitar background and while it may have facilitated my learning it also meant there were things (beyond the lack of dots and frets) that I needed to learn. I was simply trying to reply to the original post (he too seemed to have come from a bass guitar background - at least that is what I assumed from the what I read).

I tend to think that you, Mike, are in a different situation than I am and so I understand your point. Again just trying to address the original post.
 
#53
I used white correction fluid on the side of the neck then wiped them off once I felt comfortable. I was coming from a fretless with side dots only so it really helped me get started fast without damaging the bass. Just one at A and another at the octave was enough.
 
#54
I went through a period of working quite hard on landmarking exercises. One that felt like it really helped get around on the bass was playing scales referencing back to the low tonic going I II I III I IV I V etc all the way up the instrument. By the time you work this up to 120 bpm nailing 2-1/2 octave leaps you won't notice dots one way or the other. It's all about spacial reference of the bass to your body and visual sub-division of the string length....and EARS!!!!

I'm not saying you have to or should or that you're a bad person or a lousy player if you don't but you can pretty easily work past thinking you need dots.
 
#56
forester said:
View attachment 205877
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Ha ha! :D

My advice is use them if it helps, but learn your hand positions and practice them daily. This will improve your playing out of sight!

But if you get hooked on having markers on your bass, who cares? It's the music that's important...the only ones who care about how it looks will be the bass players, and generally there will be very few of them in the audience.

(hides under desk, awaiting flaming....:hiding:)

jeff arddun said:
I'm not saying you have to or should or that you're a bad person or a lousy player if you don't but you can pretty easily work past thinking you need dots.
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+1 to this, too!
 
#59
jeff arddun said:
I went through a period of working quite hard on landmarking exercises. One that felt like it really helped get around on the bass was playing scales referencing back to the low tonic going I II I III I IV I V etc all the way up the instrument. By the time you work this up to 120 bpm nailing 2-1/2 octave leaps you won't notice dots one way or the other.
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Yay for Bradetich method books. Or atleast that's where I learned this exercise from.

Anyway +1 to this.
 
#60
BassMaster65 said:
Yay for Bradetich method books. Or atleast that's where I learned this exercise from.

Anyway +1 to this.
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I came up with it myself when a teacher set me the task of defining a weakness and coming up with an exercise to address it. I've never seen the Bradetich books but it's a pretty obvious way to practice interval leaps and it doesn't surprise me I wasn't the first to think of it.
 

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