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Down firing speakers

A

azureblue

Jan 29, 2008
2,560
1,445
Winston Salem, NC
#1
I have a couple of passive radiator cabinets - 8"active, 6" passive, with a high end cone. I am thinking about combining, or maybe two separate down firing cabinets, to be used mostly for jazz. The purpose is bass dispersion on stage.. So a few questions--

1 - a box with the active speaker down firing and the passive facing front with the tweeter (or reversed)
2 - any plans available
3 - advice on down firing cabinets?
 
#2
My only experience with a downfiring bass cabinet is a Boom Bass Cabinets Matrix with a 15" and 2x10 configuration. I really liked the downfiring concept and design of cabinet and it sounded great for the short time that I had it. But the fit and finish/QC was disappointingly not up to par for a premium priced cabinet and I sent it back (I think I have a review of it somewhere here on TB). Sweetwater stopped stocking BBC cabinets not too long after, so I wonder if there were consistent issues like I had?
 
#4
Downfiring woofer with front facing passive radiator will really suffer from mid extension. This is why you don't see them in any successful commercial cabinets.

To make it work, a separate front facing mid driver is needed to make up for the loss of mids. A tweeter isn't going to work well because the mid rolloff occurs in the 400hz and up range, maybe even lower.

This has been my experience.
 
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#6
agedhorse said:
Downfiring woofer with front facing passive radiator will really suffer from mid extension. This is why you don't see them in any successful commercial cabinets.

To make it work, a separate front facing mid driver is needed to make up for the loss of mids. A tweeter isn't going to work well because the mid rolloff occurs in the 400hz and up range, maybe even lower.

This has been my experience.
Click to expand...
Acoustic Image?
 
#12
Redbrangus said:
IF the OP has two working AI cabs, IMHO it would be nuts to dismantle them in an attempt to build something different, especially if the object is to achieve more dispersion. Two cabs can be pointed any which way, including having one pointed upstage or toward the drummer or other players.
Click to expand...
This was the concept of later versions of the Acoustic Image amps.
 
#13
Towards the end and before he passed away. Mr. Jones went away from the down firing design, and yes it is always with a mid range front facing. The 1 AI combo that I have. I actually use the tilt legs that is provided because it's not so great if I don't and I hear people that do not and it is not so great - muddy. I also have tried the Ten-Ten which is 2 10's and one is down firing. In that design Mr. Jones added an attenuator for the down firing driver and I think that was a good design to add that and when I used one, always I would cut the down firing one almost to the minimum

His last designs were , an up firing single 10, 2 opposing side firing with a midrange and the last one was an upfiring woofer with a side midrange, I think he realized that it is better to just amplify the bass rather than couple it with the floor and certainly with better class D amplification and more powerful woofers that was the logical step. The AI combos although 300 watt capable probably only provide 150 watts realistically with the built in speakers. They are also so inefficient . If you pair it with any 10 cab you can hear anything out of the built in

There is also a Mesa Walkabout with a passive downfiring radiator woofer --- I liked those very much and looking for 1

I do use my older AI combo a lot but always have to tilt it. I should probably start using the Double Shot more
 
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#14
logdrum said:
Towards the end and before he passed away. Mr. Smith went away from the down firing design, and yes it is always with a mid range front facing. The 1 AI combo that I have. I actually use the tilt legs that is provided because it's not so great if I don't and I hear people that do not and it is not so great - muddy. I also have tried the Ten-Ten which is 2 10's and one is down firing. In that design Mr. Smith added an attenuator for the down firing driver and I think that was a good design to add that and when I used one, always I would cut the down firing one almost to the minimum

His last designs were , an up firing single 10, 2 opposing side firing with a midrange and the last one was an upfiring woofer with a side midrange, I think he realized that it is better to just amplify the bass rather than couple it with the floor and certainly with better class D amplification and more powerful woofers that was the logical step. The AI combos although 300 watt capable probably only provide 150 watts realistically with the built in speakers. They are also so inefficient . If you pair it with any 10 cab you can hear anything out of the built in

There is also a Mesa Walkabout with a passive downfiring radiator woofer --- I liked those very much and looking for 1

I do use my older AI combo a lot but always have to tilt it. I should probably start using the Double Shot more
Click to expand...
What?

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/dr-richard-rick-jones-acoustic-image-1947-2023.1606738/
 
#15
The lows are pretty much omni any way. So using down firing woofer to spread the lows isn't really necessary.

I used one of the original Acoustic Image Contras. I did not think it was transparent and accurate, but I liked the tone. My perception is it created an illusion of space where the speaker seemed to disappear. This amp could work well in a relatively dry room with little reverb. My understanding is the design tends to get lost in a lively acoustic environment. Eventually Acoustic Image abandoned the down firing woofer configuration in favor of the Double Shot which had a pair of 10s mounted on opposite sides of a tube with a front firing mid driver. I believe it was claimed that this configuration had less of a tendency to get lost.


Other companies that have made similar claims:
  • Bergantino has made cabs with front and rear firing woofers (HG410).
  • AudioKinesis made cabs with front and rear firing tweeters (Thunderchild with UFT or AF option), cabs that used an acoustic chamber to spread dispersion of the mids (Hathor series), cabs with the Hathor's acoustic chamber plus a rear firing mid driver (Changeling).

One of the first rigs I built was a an Ampeg SVT on and 810 biamped with a Fender Twin Reverb loaded with JBL E120s. The Twin is an open back design. Believe it or not, I used this rig in big band. Several band members told me it allowed them to hear the bass better on stage. I attribute this to the open back Twin.
 
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#17
Orienting a woofer horizontally has some technical consequences that must be accounted for. Basically woofers are generally designed for sideways orientation. With the cone facing down, gravity changes how the voice coil centers in the gap/magnetic field. I am not an expert, but I believe this can have an impact on mechanical power handling and other performance characteristics.
 
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#19
I have experimented with orienting some of my old cabs to be down firing. The drivers are EV118B and the cabs are too small for the driver, so they don't sound great IMHO. I used one cab firing down and one cab firing forward. It did not create the perception of space like the AI Contra. Also the drivers seemed to be fighting with each other a bit.

I ran both cabs full range. My guess is it would work better if I ran the cabs biamp with a small amount of delay on the front facing cab. During the time I ran this experiment I did not have the means to apply time delay.

Before doing a custom build, I suggest doing a similar experiment with whatever gear you can barrow or have on hand.
 
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#20
Wasnex said:
I have experimented with orienting some of my old cabs to be down firing. The drivers are EV118B and the cabs are too small for the driver, so they don't sound great IMHO. I used one cab firing down and one cab firing forward. It did not create the perception of space like the AI Contra. Also the drivers seemed to be fighting with each other a bit.

I ran both cabs full range. My guess is it would work better if I ran the cabs biamp with a small amount of delay on the front facing cab. During the time I ran this experiment I did not have the means to apply time delay.

Before doing a custom build, I suggest doing a similar experiment with whatever gear you can barrow or have on hand.
Click to expand...
Reminds me of a band - jam band GD/Phish/Lettuce etc covers I played bass briefly

In the practice room, they had Fender Twins and Fender Pros hanging from the ceiling, one of the amps was down firing. They were hanging with chains. It sounded cool though since he used stereo effects. When he ask me to try it - I was nervous of the one over my head and thinking it would fall down on me. That was loud though even with the Twins on 2

I never gigged live with them only 2 try out sessions. Not sure how the amps are set live. I think he went the modeler route.
 
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