Double Bass DPA 4099 B into Grace Designs Alix on stage

[MattyMc]

Hello All!

I recently picked up a DPA 4099 B in the quest for attaining better tone during live performance. Currently, I'm using a Rev Solo pickup by Upton Bass directly into a Grace Designs Alix, and then sending signal to FOH via XLR from the Alix, and send a signal to my stage amp. This gives me the ability to control feedback quickly and MUTE when I want. My thought was that I could now take the signal from the DPA 4099 directly into the Alix and then send that to FOH, and send my PU signal to my stage amp. Last nights gig showed otherwise.

At rehearsal the day before I sent the DPA signal directly into the PA board, and sent my PU signal to my amp. All worked splendidly. I didn't have the time to try the DPA into the Alix and then to the board. I assumed it would just work at the gig, but I could not get signal in the Alix. I was using a XLR/1/4" cable, with 1/4" side pinto the Alix IN. I did get signal from the DPA when I plugged directly into the FOH using XLR/XLR cable. I tried the 12v switch on the Alix, I tried toggling the Line/Mic switch, and I tried pretty much everything else, but nothing. I tried another XLR/1/4" cable with the same result.

My basic question is, is it possible to go from the DPA into the Alix, then to FOH? Or am I missing something? Does anyone else use this method or something similar? I understand the Alix has 12V phantom power, and I assume that is what is needed to power the DPA. I wanted to post here for some quick feedback as I haven't had time to research more deeply. Tonight I plan to play with it a bit more at home.

Thank you all in advance for your input and expertise! I've learned so much from these threads here on TB.

Matt

 

[Scott Lynch]

Subbed. I am in the same situation. I actually bought a microdot to 1/4 adaptor so that I could plug my DPA into my Alix but I haven't done it yet. According to what I've read, the DPA will run on 12v, albeit with reduced headroom compared to a 48v signal. I need to do some experimenting here with my own gear. I'll report back in a bit.

 

[MattyMc]

Scott Lynch, thanks! Looking forward to reading your findings.

 

[Bruce Calin]

Hi, MattyMc,
Your post reminds me of myself years ago. I have tried more mikes, pickups, preamps, cables, amplifiers, and combinations of these over the years than I can count or even remember. I finally came to the conclusion that all of the stress, frustration, expense, and uncertainty that this caused was simply not worth it and interfered with what I wanted to do, which was make music. What finally freed my whole concept was to use a pickup that gave decent enough sound quality with simplicity and reliability, a simple preamp that made the most of the pickup's potential, small amp that was the best and most reliable for DB, and a cabinet with similar qualities. The acceptance of the supposed lesser sound quality for simplicity and reliability is a compromise that I wouldn't hesitate to make again and wish I could have reached much sooner in my bass playing life. The fact that I can play through an amp,send to FOH with decent results or whatever with a minimum of stress is worth a lot, believe me. I know this doesn't answer your question but I hope gives some food for thought.

 

[MattyMc]

Thank you, Bruce! Yes, I'm definitely the "Grasshopper" in this endeavor. The issue is that the PU by itself produces a very middy, playing in a can type of tone. I can sometimes get a decently warm and somewhat detailed tone with the Alix EQ controls, but usually that requires the highs and mids to be nearly off. I just want a warm and detailed tone. Perhaps a different pickup may be the answer. Have you used a Revolution Solo pickup?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I'm not sure that the Alix is meant to power a mic like the DPA. Here's what the manual says:

 

[Bruce Calin]

Thank you, Bruce! Yes, I'm definitely the "Grasshopper" in this endeavor. The issue is that the PU by itself produces a very middy, playing in a can type of tone. I can sometimes get a decently warm and somewhat detailed tone with the Alix EQ controls, but usually that requires the highs and mids to be nearly off. I just want a warm and detailed tone. Perhaps a different pickup may be the answer. Have you used a Revolution Solo pickup?

I have not tried the Rev Solo but have tried several of similar design. The usual disclaimers always apply in these situations depending on your bass, strings, etc. My point is that I eventually gave up the "ideal" amplified sound chase because it was causing more grief than it was worth and settled for something that was "good enough" for my purposes and I didn't have to worry about or mess with. My personal opinion is that using a mike in this type of performance situation, which to me is anything outside of a recording studio, is simply not worth it. It's an opinion I've come to through experience and will stick by in any but the rarest circumstance. You're just starting on the journey if I understand you correctly and I hope it will be a good one for you. I'm giving you my experience and maybe saving you some expense and frustration along the way.

 

[MattyMc]

Just got off the phone with Mark Gollihur and he explained it to me this way. The Alix is simply not designed to provide enough phantom voltage for the DPA. Period. Even if it did power it and produce some signal, it would be paper thin and not be at all desirable. So, the takeaway was that I should have bought the Felix instead of the Alix. HaHaHa!

Anyone have a Grace Felix they'd consider parting with? Or maybe would like to trade for the Alix + $?? I do have other bass gear (amps, cabs, pedals) that I wouldn't mind trading out as well.

Thanks, everyone, for your feedback!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

If you are only planning to send the mic to FOH, why not use the phantom power from the FOH board and use the Alix for the pickup? I don't use mics any more, but when I did use them, that's how I ran it.

 

[statsc]

Just got off the phone with Mark Gollihur and he explained it to me this way. The Alix is simply not designed to provide enough phantom voltage for the DPA. Period. Even if it did power it and produce some signal, it would be paper thin and not be at all desirable. So, the takeaway was that I should have bought the Felix instead of the Alix. HaHaHa!

Anyone have a Grace Felix they'd consider parting with? Or maybe would like to trade for the Alix + $?? I do have other bass gear (amps, cabs, pedals) that I wouldn't mind trading out as well.

Thanks, everyone, for your feedback!

Buy a Tonedexter, sell the Alix, make some wave maps with the DPA, then sell the DPA. You'll come out ahead in $$, you'll get the sound you're looking for, and you won't need a different pickup!

 

[MattyMc]

If you are only planning to send the mic to FOH, why not use the phantom power from the FOH board and use the Alix for the pickup? I don't use mics any more, but when I did use them, that's how I ran it.

So that is an option, but I would prefer to have the control that the Alix (soon to be Felix) gives. I would like to be able to mute when I want to and to dial out feedback frequencies if need be. I don always have the most on-the-ball sound people and can't count on them all the time.

 

[MattyMc]

Buy a Tonedexter, sell the Alix, make some wave maps with the DPA, then sell the DPA. You'll come out ahead in $$, you'll get the sound you're looking for, and you won't need a different pickup!

Thank you statsc! Very interesting option!

 

[Wasnex]

In my experience, mics don't work very well going to a stage amp. I know some people claim to get good results...to be blunt, I doubt I would agree. If the mic will not be sent to the stage amp, don't bother with the added complexity of routing it through the Alix. Just send it to FOH.


I would do the following.
1. Use only the pickup for your stage rig.
2. The mic should only go to FOH and it should only be used for the FOH mix (no monitors).
3. Send the signal from your pickup to FOH. The audio tech can choose which works best or blend the mic and pickup. If the bass is sent to the monitors use only the pickup signal.

I agree that mics sound way better than pickups. But pickups tend to be way better at rejecting feedback and bleed from other sound sources. The biggest problem is upright bass is not a very loud instrument, so it's really difficult to get the sound of the bass over the bleed from surrounding instruments.

In order to use a mic effectively, the related issues can't be left to chance. They must be considered and actively managed to the highest degree possible. The result is sometimes the mic may work and sometimes it may not. So it's a good idea to have the signal from the pickup available, just in case.

Related factors include how the band is set up, how the mic is aim, and what sort of gear and techniques are used to mitigate bleed. Gear related to mitigating bleed can include drum shields, gobos, and reflexion filters.

Drum shields attempt to control bleed from the drums.

Gobos are acoustic panels that are strategically placed to try and create an acoustic shadow for the mic. They attempt to block and absorb sound.

A reflexion filter is sort of a small gobo that goes around the back of the mic. These are more suited to mics that are not attached to the bass.

You can clearly see the reflexion filter on @John Goldsby 's mic at about 0:59


I believe this is the model he is using (sE Electronics RF Space).

Consider how this ensemble is set up. Do you think this configuration could reduce bleed into the bass mic?

You can see both the reflexion filter on the bass mic and two large gobos to the left and right of the drummer. I believe Mr Goldsby is using a pickup to drive a small amp at low volume.

 

[coyote1]

At risk of severely 'downgrading' your gear (yet obtaining exactly what you seek), you might want to try one of the Behringer mini mixers or something similar. The "six channel" mini mixer provides 48v phantom power via the two XLR inputs (ch 1 & 2), along with three-band tone control and FX loop.

I'm using one to power and control an Audix F90 (also called ADX90) mic that sits under the strings between the bridge and tailpiece. It sounds great. If you're running straight to FOH you could add your own multi band EQ (or perhaps your existing Alix or Felix) to give you more control over feedback and boominess bands. You could hypothetically use a volume pedal between the line out from that mixer and the FOH, or even in the FX loop, so you could instantly cut volume with your foot if you're getting feedback.

 

[MattyMc]

In my experience, mics don't work very well going to a stage amp. I know some people claim to get good results...to be blunt, I doubt I would agree. If the mic will not be sent to the stage amp, don't bother with the added complexity of routing it through the Alix. Just send it to FOH.


I would do the following.
1. Use only the pickup for your stage rig.
2. The mic should only go to FOH and it should only be used for the FOH mix (no monitors).
3. Send the signal from your pickup to FOH. The audio tech can choose which works best or blend the mic and pickup. If the bass is sent to the monitors use only the pickup signal.

I agree that mics sound way better than pickups. But pickups tend to be way better at rejecting feedback and bleed from other sound sources. The biggest problem is upright bass is not a very loud instrument, so it's really difficult to get the sound of the bass over the bleed from surrounding instruments.

In order to use a mic effectively, the related issues can't be left to chance. They must be considered and actively managed to the highest degree possible. The result is sometimes the mic may work and sometimes it may not. So it's a good idea to have the signal from the pickup available, just in case.

Related factors include how the band is set up, how the mic is aim, and what sort of gear and techniques are used to mitigate bleed. Gear related to mitigating bleed can include drum shields, gobos, and reflexion filters.

Drum shields attempt to control bleed from the drums.

Gobos are acoustic panels that are strategically placed to try and create an acoustic shadow for the mic. They attempt to block and absorb sound.

View attachment 6995893

A reflexion filter is sort of a small gobo that goes around the back of the mic. These are more suited to mics that are not attached to the bass.
View attachment 6995901

You can clearly see the reflexion filter on @John Goldsby 's mic at about 0:59


I believe this is the model he is using (sE Electronics RF Space).
View attachment 6995915

Consider how this ensemble is set up. Do you think this configuration could reduce bleed into the bass mic?
View attachment 6995909
You can see both the reflexion filter on the bass mic and two large gobos to the left and right of the drummer. I believe Mr Goldsby is using a pickup to drive a small amp at low volume.

Thank you Wasnex! There's a lot to chew on here. I'm ok with sending mic signal to FOH, but I definitely want the ability to mute that signal when necessary for tuning, etc., which is why I thought I could use what I currently use for the PU signal, Alix. So currently I can not use the Alix to control the mic signal, only to control the PU signal to my amp. The Felix is what I need in order to accomplish my original goal. But all this food for thought has given me much to consider. So thank you all for the suggestions and wealth of information!!!

 

[edwinhurwitz]

I have a Felix and it's worth having for all the flexibility. In fact, I have serial number 0003 and since then, they've done some upgrades to it that I wish I had, such as the ability to run the effects loop in full stereo (so you could process your mic and pickup separately with outboard EQs or DSP). It's a really wonderful box and you won't ever have to replace it.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I'm not sure that the Alix is meant to power a mic like the DPA. Here's what the manual says:

View attachment 6995718

This is not standard phantom power which is only delivered on balanced XLR to hot and inverse line.

Here you can choose to deliver the power on an extra line (ring) or on the hot line only, similar to the hot line on phantom power.
But even with a TRS to XLR adapter it doesn't get delivered to the inverse line which is needed for real phantom power. That's the reason why it didn't and won't work.

It will work with a simple electret capsule that has the JFET built in (most of them have). But not when this simple powering scheme is converted into phantom power for studio application.

I understand that you want to mute the mic for tuning, but you easily get the hell in your amp using a mic for it.

 

[Wasnex]

I'm ok with sending mic signal to FOH, but I definitely want the ability to mute that signal when necessary for tuning, etc.

FYI, Several companies offer inline mic mute switches that pass phantom power. You can also buy XLR cables with a built-in switch.

 

[logdrum]

Not that I am advocating getting another preamp but what works for me with when I need blending setups is the EBD-2 HE. It has 3 outputs, a stereo send (mono is channel 1) , XLR and line out. The XLR can be sourced from either channel or both, the regular line out is only mixed.

When I first got my basses, I only had piezo pickup, an old BP100 and a full circle. But later I got me a ATM-350 clip on and then I also got a REMIC. Those go to the XLR Channel 2. Then later I finally a Schertler Stat B . This is a great solution, no Piezo quack which can be EQ'ed but only so much. The Stat B is very mic like if you get it in the right place and is bass dependent. Having said that the combo of the mic and piezo/stat b is great, but I do ask the FOH, if they want the mixed or just mic or the piezo. For my stage amp - I usually just use the piezo which is always volume resistant (to a large degree), the stat b is great but best for just for medium volumes. Mixed mic+piezo to the amp is a balancing game as the stage volume goes higher. So the notch filter feature is really great on this preamp. I think the upright is just complex and any lowend resonance is a beast. For my saxophone gigs, it's a no brainer with my clip on mic even if I am using a stage powered cab since I also play with effects.

But just like someone said, it's better to make it simple and forget about the mic. IME ATM is supposed to be a HyperCardiod and so is the REMIC LB5000 designed for live use, but too much time wasted to EQ and notch and gain it up. Even with a perfect soundcheck, when everything get's loud, I ran into issues more often than not. Try the Stat B. It's mic like to a certain degree and it take a while before you get into feedback not as resistant as a piezo.

Avishai Cohen has a big SVT plus 8X10 behind him. I do not know how he does it. He sings too .

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Or use something like this before the Alix

PB23 Phantom Power Adapter | Rolls Corporation - Real Sound