Dr. DIMENTO’S V-BASS PICKUP EXPERIMENT

[luknfur]

FWIW:

actually the pups have been pretty infrequent flyers on ebay lately - which is about the only used source for them. One just went yesterday but that's the only one in the last couple weeks. They typically go for over a hundred so you're not saving a bunch over new anyway. Not hard to come by new.

The guitar pups are plentiful and typically go for around $80 from what I've seen of them. I don't know if they'd work on bass or not but my guess is no if they're set up like the bass pups.

 

[greenboy]

hoi luknfur,

From an experienced user who's plugged the unit straight into a power amp for hundreds of gigs and sculpted hundreds of dynamic patches, I can tell you that I'd put in more time before forming too many suppositions. But I'm not so fond of typing these days that I'll go point for point (that's why I wish every V-Bass owner/user would contribute to building a comprehensive specialty knowledge/information base at Link Removed).

Suffice it to say that if you wish to solve problems you percieve with the unit and its sonic abilities, if you persevere you will find tons of gold in them thar hills.

I will briefly address one point though: gettting rid of any controls on the bass. I realize the GK is the big bugaboo for most propective and current owners because of installation cosmetics and real-estate problems. But the few extra controls it offers play a huge part in my live use, and were I to map the functions I'm using it for to something else I'd have to go with a bigger footprint on the floor since I'm already using everything on the floor unit and a pedal velcroed to the face of the unit assigned to SUB CTL1. I quite like the ability to take very little to a gig and to be set up in minutes, and to have so much dynamic real-time control during and between songs. And having some of that on the bass has become another natural extension much like having a regular old set of knobs on a standard bass - only MUCH more powerful.

Your needs may differ. But I'll tell you that for me one of the largest attractions of the V-Bass is being able to design presets that can morph with dynamic control, and the V-Bass package offers just enough pedals/switches to make it easy and deep. I continue to be surprised how many V-Bass people overlook this.

And if you aren't finding killer tones, you just need to spend more time and work the land - it'll come. The satisfied V-Bassers seem to be the people who've put in the time and learned the unit. It's deep, and a lot of the sonic excellence takes awhile to put to best use. I concentrated on just one or two COSM models at a time to learn their caveats, and to find ways to put them to use both in combinations with the host bass magnetics and soloed... I found that the factory patches weren't so bad, but to make many of them more USEFUL required using controllers to alter the parameters within any given patch and to be in MANUAL mode during performance so that individual effects modules could be turned on and off without wasting assignable controllers on that. Probably every patch I've written can be stripped down to a basic pure tone approach that can morph into whatever more extravagant treatments I think may complement/orchestrate certain songs and approaches.

...At first I was going to relegate all my use to COSM bass guitars and maybe the occasional standup through a few COSM amp models and without, but I've found use for pretty much every head/cab combo and COSM bass one way or another, often because of the blends I've been able to set up, taking notice of how setting up the signal chain for magnetics and COSM bass can affect what is possible.

Not a perfect unit {but what is?;} - but I sure get more mileage out of it in a smaller package than any other approach I've taken. Other than a Graphtech piezo installation and a dedicated looper for solo gigging I've pretty much lost all GAS, seeming to have found an energy source that keeps me moving and grooving. Given my previous history, that's something!

 

[luknfur]

hoi luknfur,

From.....Given my previous history, that's something!

I was wondering when you'd show up.

For the most part all I have now is suppositions. If that doesn't stand out it's not becuase I haven't expended effort in that direction. One reason I began this thread is so I'd have a record of a work in progress. It would also give another novice an idea of what to expect.

By controller I assume you mean some external unit that modifies soundwaves? As in real synth stuff. Or are you referring to internal control over the parameters within the VBass unit?

 

[greenboy]

I don't spend much time on forums lately.

Just think of CC - MIDI continuous controllers - that's essentially how the V-Bass is set up on the ASSIGN PEDALS pages. There you can map whatever parameter changes you want, to the V-Bass's pedals and switches, or to external CC numbers. Not so different than decent synth/sampler - dynamic changes to multiple parameters can be transmitted via computer or dedicated control surfaces/footboards/etc.

Pardon my "suppositions" bit. It's great that you've journaled your experiences thus far.

 

[luknfur]

I don't spend much time on forums lately.

Pardon my "suppositions" bit. It's great that you've journaled your experiences thus far.

Yep, understand (the no time in forum part).

No offense taken on the supposition thing. Sometimes I think I made something apparent when it's only apparent to me. So I never really know without feedback.

Just noticed your locale. The thought has crossed my mind more than once that the V bass is the perfect gadget to take along for someone going into isolation for a while, maybe a long while. Just divorced, broke up with girlfirend, whatever. Great way to just step off the planet for a break.

I'm not the tech head type so synth/midi is not really my thing. So probably a yes or no as to whether the controller your referencing is external or incorporated into the V bass will more than suffice for the time being.

Also I tried to locate your V bass forum but I'm apparently search impaired at the moment so if you'd toss that link out I'd appreciate it. It needs to be mentioned in this thread regardless of mention elsewhere.

 

[Marcus Willett]

I wish every V-Bass owner/user would contribute to building a comprehensive specialty knowledge/information base at Link Removed.

That site really is a treasure trove of V-Bass info. I wish I had something meaningful to contribute, but everything I think of has already been covered, and the questions I still have can only be answered by Roland....and they don't seem to be too forthcoming.

But yeah, greenboy's efforts with the site are laudable.

 

[luknfur]

"

That site really is a treasure trove of V-Bass info. I wish I had something meaningful to contribute, but everything I think of has already been covered, and the questions I still have can only be answered by Roland....and they don't seem to be too forthcoming.

But yeah, greenboy's efforts with the site are laudable.

Thanks,

I've been there before but it's been a while and couldn't remember what it was called exactly. Drillgun I finally did remember but I couldn't get the link from that. I think I just used to punch "V bass forum gun" (or drill) into google and it'd pull up. Didn't happen this round. I've seen it elsewhere in TB but couldn't find it.

 

[luknfur]

Week 5: One Approach To Rewriting Junk Patches

Synopsis

Trying to rewrite all patches for usable basslines. Not finished products for now but just something that sounds like a bass. No manual, seat of the pants by ear trial and error - so a fairly painless process. I’ve done a dozen maybe so far and they all sound different. Most have both a GK and a Mag setting that works, a few mag pup only. Nice mix actually. All do something well: slow/fast tunes, percussiveness, chords/double stops, some effects, some synth mix (horn, organ), some J some P, some dark/midrangie/bright, etc. - but they work for bass to tunes. In all looks promising so far. Fact is, I’ve pretty much only been playing through the V bass since I got it.

Whole Enchilada

Just plugging away getting rid of some broings and sproings. Maybe have done about a dozen such patches. I started with one patch then began progressing through them in sequence, picking off the intolerable ones as I went. I’ve never actually figured how many unusable ones there are, half of them at least I’d guess (25). That would include the distortion stuff which to me sounds like guitar not bass - especially since 90% of it’s higher frequency. A couple I tried to do something with but abandoned to come back to later. I’ll go through the lot of them and then pick up the leftovers next round. For the time being I just want to go through the user patches so they all sound like something that would make for a useable bassline.

I’m curious to see how many of them will sound alike when I’m through. It crossed my mind they’d all end up sounding like a Jazz bass since that’s basically the tone I favor. So far they all sound different. Nice mix actually. All do something well: slow/fast tunes, percussiveness, chords/double stops, some effects, some synth mix (horn, organ), some J some P, some dark/midrangie/bright, etc. - but they work for bass to tunes.

There’s actually enough variation within the core patch that can’t be changed (or so it seems to this point) to pretty much escape the sameness. Also for the most part it was only necessary to alter a few things to make it passable - which is all I’m going for at the moment. Fact is, I was surprised at how little is added to the core patch. Basically everything that’s in the core patch is offered in adjustable parameters somewhere in the V Bass but some of those aspects within the core patch are not adjustable - at least from what I can tell. Ways to go yet.

Gone surprisingly well so far. I’ve only played maybe a couple of the rewritten patches to tunes and EQ is still off for the most part but I see much of eq’ing being external to the V Bass in the end anyway. How much I’m not sure. Ideally I tried to get something useable through the GK pup only and Mag pup only for each patch. So two tones for each patch excluding anything that may come from mixing the GK and Mag pup. That I’ll mess with later and will be icing on the cake as far as I’m concerned. Fairly successful so far but seems there were a couple that were Mag pup only so far.

I’ve read about the parameters in the manual and adjusted knowing what I was doing before but this was all seat of the pants. This is just the beginning stage of many adjustments to come and not the time for details. I know from reading the manual there are some parameters that are not adjustable in certain modes and I’ve ran across a fair share that have done nothing that I could tell. I just move on to one that does do something. If it sounds like an improvement, I keep it and move on without doing much bouncing back and forth to the same parameter. It’s actually surprising at how much of what’s going on soaks in that way and it’s a lot faster (and more enjoyable) than thumbing through the manual.

I usually start in effects and see what they’ve thrown in that’s adjustable there then go to the guitar models (which includes, synths, horns, etc). Amps/cabs I’ve messed with least in this phase and haven’t even gone they unless required. Amp’s can definitely make a significant difference though and have salvaged a patch or two of those done so far.

In all looks promising so far. Fact is, I’ve pretty much only been playing through the V bass since I got it.

 

[luknfur]

Week 6: Impression of Junk-Free Patches

Synopsis

FINALLY completed altering what I call useless patches. (Just to qualify: by completed I mean getting rid of the junk in the user patches that are merely copies of the preset patches on purchase). I haven't really even begun to tweak them to taste). Two weeks of it struck me as over the top. There were so many more than what I had expected that I sat down and did a head count. Somehow I got into my head there were only 50 patches when there is 100. In brief, the head count yielded: 51 Useless patches, 18 Marginal, and 31 Bass. So I had more than double the patches I’d expected to alter.

At any rate a vast improvement over what was. A scary thought is if these patches are a reflection of the unit overall. Cause I’d estimate what I basically did was eliminate about 70% of what this unit does - shutting off 12 of their 16 “COSM BASS TYPES” and at least the same percentage of effects. In a sense that would be a tragedy of what could have been but the upside is that 30% still consolidates a truck load of gear into a small box at a fraction of the price and inconvenience.

Whole Enchilada

Going through these tones continued to make me wonder what these guys were thinking of given the end product of patches Roland came up with. Apparently LSD’s got nothing on these new designer drugs.

A lot of these patches do sound alike once the sproings, high frequencies, and distortion are removed - as do many of them whether the GK pup or mag pup is used. Some actually sound better through the mag pup and once some of the synth patches are gutted to tolerable limits there’s really nothing left except the mag pup. I roamed around a fair amount tweaking this and that for a while but got to the point where I just found where the noise was and cut it off enough to sound something like a bass and moved on to the next one, whether it sounded the same or not. Two weeks is more than enough time to dally with such nonsense. I’ve been playing patches and doing some other things so it’s not all I’ve done during that period but it had gotten old and I sure didn‘t think it would involve more than a week of dinking.

In fact, I couldn’t figure out how I could have done a couple dozen and still had a dozen to go it seemed. Something was way off in my initial ballpark estimate of 25 or so in need of alteration. That contradiction forced me to sit down to do a head count. So I made up some rough categories and went through the user patches one at a time plugging each one into a category.

Three major categories according to my impression of their utility as Roland shipped them: Useless (No possible application as a bassline); Marginal (remote but possible application as a bassline), and Bass (designed for bass). I also included 3 subcategories under Useless and Marginal to get a better feel for the actual makeup of the patches that weren‘t bass. I also went back and broke the bass patches down into 4 categories cause it seemed like a lot of them were not for fretted electric bass - which amounts to virtually all of my playing.

The results were 51 Useless patches, 18 Marginal, and 31 Bass. Of the 51 Useless patches 7 were Guitar Distortion, 42 were Space Cadet, and 2 were Other. Of the 18 Marginal 5 were Bass Distortion, 3 were Space Cadet, and 10 were Other. By Space Cadet I mean the weird synth stuff or something equally useless. Other usually amounted to Orchestral/organ.

In the Bass patches there’s also quite a few Acoustic, Fretless, and URB patches. Although there’s some crossover, these typically have very limited application for those who don’t play certain styles of music (ie. Latin, Jazz, bluegrass, etc.). So I did a head count of those and got 9 Acoustic, 4 Fretless, and 3 URB which totals 16. There were actually more than that but some would crossover quite well to a range of styles - like a few were fretless without pronounced mwah. In the end, for the vast majority of tunes I play fretted electric to there were about 15 out of 100 patches that could be played to standard electric bass tunes as Roland shipped it. By any measure, that’s pathetic.

I haven’t tried messing with the chain sequence as Greenboy suggested and there may be a gold mine there. One thing at a time. Of course he also suggested just messing thoroughly with one patch but that’s not my style and I’d go nuts doing that. There’s more than one way to learn something and I’m no glutton for punishment or end product guy. To me the journey IS the destination. A journey that sucks will find me getting off at the next stop and beginning one that doesn’t.

Having ditched the majority of the Roland presets, the journey has improved dramatically . A scary thought is if these patches are a reflection of the unit overall. Cause I’d estimate what I basically did was eliminate about 70% of what this unit does - shutting off 12 of their 16 “COSM BASS TYPES” and at least the same percentage of effects. In a sense that would be a tragedy of what could have been but the upside is that 30% still consolidates a truck load of gear into a small box at a fraction of the price and inconvenience.

 

[brandonwong]

Glad you got it working out...
I just got my new unit functioning today and still need time to tweak the parameters.

Sad story.. I plugged a 240v into a 117v unit wihtout realizing its not auto-voltage. Not your fault Marcus.
I was just too lazy to call Roland and check with them.
It started working for a minute and blew up the next.
I felt so stupid and silly the whole night after.

In the end i have to spend another $130 to get the transformer changed and some switch replaced(apparently it was faulty from shipping).
I really love this unit now that it is superb on tracking compared to my AXON MKii which is great in midi sounds but lacking in real time playing on lower registers.
I'm using my FBass BN6 with RMCs and its working fantastically, no lag on the B string also.

Cheers, send more updates mate!

Brandon

 

[luknfur]

Glad you got it working out...
I just got my new unit functioning today and still need time to tweak the parameters.

Sad story.. I plugged a 240v into a 117v unit wihtout realizing its not auto-voltage. Not your fault Marcus.
I was just too lazy to call Roland and check with them.
It started working for a minute and blew up the next.
I felt so stupid and silly the whole night after.

In the end i have to spend another $130 to get the transformer changed and some switch replaced(apparently it was faulty from shipping).
I really love this unit now that it is superb on tracking compared to my AXON MKii which is great in midi sounds but lacking in real time playing on lower registers.
I'm using my FBass BN6 with RMCs and its working fantastically, no lag on the B string also.

Cheers, send more updates mate!

Brandon

Sorry to hear about the casuality. Some gear is switchable and some you can go internally and make adjustment for different power supply. I would assume a V Bass sold in a given region would be equiped for the region. Never really thought about it but in my manual it says AC 100V.

Not cheap but that sounds like a pretty fair price coming from a manufacturer.

If you have any more contact with Roland ask them about that internal battery. I was wondering what life expectancy was and cost. Sounds like when it goes you lose all your presets - which would be a LOT worse than your experience. In fact, if it doesn't have a short shelf life, may be a good idea to have them send you one with the unit if it's not too steap pricewise. At any rate, it would be good information for you to know - or anybody with a V bass.

Good to hear about the RMC's. Seem's those are piezo?

 

[brandonwong]

Are you talking about the replaceable battery in the unit?
I did see a CR type batt and you can get that off the shelf.
If i'm not wrong, its CR 2032.

As for presets, wouldn't we be able to save it in a midi format in the computer and dump it back to the V-Bass if we lose the presets fro whatever reasons?

 

[Marcus Willett]

Yes, you can dump all of your V-Bass settings into any sequencer as a MIDI SYSEX file.

 

[luknfur]

Hmmm,

well I don't have a sequencer, any plans to get one, or any intentions of utilizing the midi on the V Bass for that matter. However I have no plans of losing presets once created either so I need to see what the options are now. I've already got more than $130 in my time in what little I've done with these patches.

So I need either to setup to move the data or find some way to swap the battery without losing it. If the data is lost when then battery goes south then it's going to be lost if it's pulled for changing. Which seems to only leave either moving the data or changing the battery while the unit's on

 

[Marcus Willett]

There's lots of freeware sequencing programs you can download. All you would need would be any type of even 1X1 (1 in, 1 out) MIDI interface...probably around $50, and you'd be set.

 

[luknfur]

Week 7: Application of Junk-Free User Patches


Synopsis

Having removed the junk from the user patches, I spent some time this week going through all those patches solo and some to music without making further adjustments to them. There seemed a lot of similarity in them but there also seemed a fair amount of variety - especially in terms of subtle aspects. Those subtleties tend to run together tonewise solo but when played to music they sound different and change the character of the tune - which is what I‘m after. That’s really no different than what you get from changing mag pups. What I’m guessing with the V Bass is there will be more difference and control than through mag pups alone - maybe a LOT more. Also I’m no slapper but the V bass appears to be a gold mine for slap tones.

Whole Enchilada

Having removed the junk from the user patches, I spent some time this week going through all those patches solo and some to music without making further adjustments to them.

First part of the week I spent doing a Modulus LP/SD MM comparison. What came out of that combination of activity was an appreciation for the quality of slap tones that come out of the V Bass. I was a bit surprised that I couldn’t really get a quality slap tone out of either Modulus pup. So I gave it up. Once I started back with the V Bass I quickly came to an awareness that I have become accustomed to doing my slap dinking (not a slapper, just entertainment for me) on the V Bass which I’m guessing would be a slapper’s paradise. There are so many patches and such a variation in tone that come from them when slapping that it’s like a whole palette of slap tones. In fact so far the patches overall seem to work better for slap than anything else. The best I got out of the Mod pups was probably among the worst of the V Bass slap tones.

In going back through the patches there seemed a lot of similarity in them but there also seemed a fair amount of variety - especially in terms of subtle aspects. Those subtleties tend to run together tonewise solo but when played to music they sound different and change the character of the tune - which is what I‘m after. That’s really no different than what you get from changing mag pups. To some players all mag pups basically sound alike and, although I don’t agree, I can understand that perspective cause there’s definitely an element of truth to it - especially depending. What I’m guessing with the V Bass is there will be more difference and control than through mag pups alone - maybe a LOT more.

One example of a subtle difference I played tonight. The tone was like a hollowbody P bass. It was not a V Bass acoustic preset, which tend be in your face acoustic. It was in fact a synth patch Roland named Filthy that I’d simply removed the garbage from. Softer than a P bass with a distinct boxie quality to tone but not excessive. Not nearly as pronounced as a Beatle bass. Whatever McCartney pulled off with a Hofner is probably quite similar cause the ones I’ve heard are pretty much one trick ponies and this worked to a broad range of styles and tunes, just put a different but acceptable spin on them.

Had a real nice percussive attack to the tone. Using the mag pup alone thinned tone out considerably but it still had a bit of boxie quality and acoustic attack. Using a flat pick made the tone more defined, more apparent brightness, yet the attack from the pick was not as pronounced as it probably would be from a P bass - which would probably be too much for most tunes without muting. Going from a thin to medium flat pick output tone in between finger and thin flat pick. So even without any eq/tone adjustment, there was quite a bit of variety available to a tone that was already fairly adaptable to music.

I’ve began making notes to a variety of the user patches that pretty much worked to music. Basically trying to get some pattern established as to what they produce as a group. Hopefully there will also be some pattern to the parameters of the tones that work well. That could save a lot of time for the next round of tweaking. Maybe I’ll have a breakdown of them within the next week as to how they stand at this point.

 

[jondog]

I'm another dedicated v-basser, just subscribing to see where you end up. I love this processor!

You haven't even got into the fx yet, that's most of what I'm using right now. Wait until you get into messing with the chain!

On the pups, one important thing you missed about the B1D is that you can't adjust the spacing like on the Roland.

 

[luknfur]

I'm another dedicated v-basser, just subscribing to see where you end up. I love this processor!

You haven't even got into the fx yet, that's most of what I'm using right now. Wait until you get into messing with the chain!

On the pups, one important thing you missed about the B1D is that you can't adjust the spacing like on the Roland.

Actually I have gone into all the effects and adjusted parameters. I doubt I've adjusted all the parameters but if I missed any they're in the minority for sure. Nothing permanent to say the least. Just dinking and getting some feel. I haven't messed with the chain at all yet.

I have yet to mount the MB1. By string spacing are you talking about like choosing which of the 6 mags you want for a 4 or 5 string bass? I don't recall any other string spacing issue other than having to measure the spread of the strings when I was installing the pickup.

Do you happen to know what that oddball jack size is that goes into the GK-2B from the bass mags? Looks like the MB1 has the same size. Are those 1/8"?

 

[jondog]

One of the magnets on my B1-D died early last month. I'm sure it's just the connection to the pc board, but I reflowed the solder and it still doesn't work. It has worked great for 2 years. I may have broken it (but I don't think so) when I took it apart to see about installing it in the control cavity.

So, for the last 10 shows I've been using mag basses into the V-Bass used solely as an fx processor (comp and eq always on, switchable distortion, octaver, autowah, and chorus) and the tweakability is awesome. I honestly get compliments on my tone every weekend.

If you have a bass w/ narrow string spacing, the B1-D must be mounted at an angle so all magnets fall under strings. My angle ended up at 40 degrees, which takes a lot of space - it fit on my frankenbass but not others.

Roland has set screws on the pup to adjust for basses w/ different spacings.

My ebay gk-2b arrived today, I thought it was 1/8" but I'll check.

I also installed the roland internal gk-2b kit on a cheap bass, it is totally worth it to get that ugly controller out of the way.

 

[luknfur]

One of the magnets on my B1-D died early last month. I'm sure it's just the connection to the pc board, but I reflowed the solder and it still doesn't work. It has worked great for 2 years. I may have broken it (but I don't think so) when I took it apart to see about installing it in the control cavity.

So, for the last 10 shows I've been using mag basses into the V-Bass used solely as an fx processor (comp and eq always on, switchable distortion, octaver, autowah, and chorus) and the tweakability is awesome. I honestly get compliments on my tone every weekend.

If you have a bass w/ narrow string spacing, the B1-D must be mounted at an angle so all magnets fall under strings. My angle ended up at 40 degrees, which takes a lot of space - it fit on my frankenbass but not others.

Roland has set screws on the pup to adjust for basses w/ different spacings.

My ebay gk-2b arrived today, I thought it was 1/8" but I'll check.

I also installed the roland internal gk-2b kit on a cheap bass, it is totally worth it to get that ugly controller out of the way.

Sorry B1-D. Okay, yeh the white tabs and set screws. I still have the pups just velcrow'd in place and keep on eye on the tabs to make sure they stay lined up.

First I've heard of the internal GK kit. Yeh, I'd say definetly the way to go if it does the same thing and is just a pot setup.

The bass GK's have been scarce on ebay lately. Out of curiosity, do you know if the guitar pups will work on the V bass - like for EBO spacing?