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Double Bass Dragonetti's Bass

#23
Paul Warburton said:
Sorry man....That was a joke!!!
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Dude that was CRUDE!!! But you had me, Paul. Still, even if he was tall and sitting down, proper camera angle, lens, etc., this would not be that unusually large a bass. I'm still waiting for measurements(anyone??) of the one in the "giant bass" museum in Loch Ness;- London, rather. (Thanks, Ken, for those on the Gasparo da Salo, which at least brings it into proper perspective)
Once more, it is tough to tell anything from a bad photo;- particularly relative size, let alone Sietz. One day I'll show you some intentionally, but very convincing, misleading photos, completely possible long before digital manipulation was ever dreamed of. It's quite simple using perspective, distance and a wide angle lens to make a tug boat look like a barge coming into port. And then if you have a view camera and use the movements, and most cameras in the 1800's were view cameras with pretty full movements. But we digress into Klotzes and Seitzes,.....

So anyway, Paul, how tall was D. Dragonetti? It seems if he was a big fellow or small fellow it would be documented somewhere.
:o
 
#24
Silversorcerer said:
Dude that was CRUDE!!! But you had me, Paul. Still, even if he was tall and sitting down, proper camera angle, lens, etc., this would not be that unusually large a bass. I'm still waiting for measurements(anyone??) of the one in the "giant bass" museum in Loch Ness;- London, rather. (Thanks, Ken, for those on the Gasparo da Salo, which at least brings it into proper perspective)
Once more, it is tough to tell anything from a bad photo;- particularly relative size, let alone Sietz. One day I'll show you some intentionally, but very convincing, misleading photos, completely possible long before digital manipulation was ever dreamed of. It's quite simple using perspective, distance and a wide angle lens to make a tug boat look like a barge coming into port. And then if you have a view camera and use the movements, and most cameras in the 1800's were view cameras with pretty full movements. But we digress into Klotzes and Seitzes,.....

So anyway, Paul, how tall was D. Dragonetti? It seems if he was a big fellow or small fellow it would be documented somewhere.
:o
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I have no idea how big Dragonetti was.....i've read and seen the standard stuff on him. That print of him with the cellists ( Lindsay? Was that the one guys name? I guess they were best friends) makes him look old and kinda shrunken up.
I'm sure Ken has alot more info because he has a formidable library of bass related stuff.
 
#25
I recently had a "klotz" expereince. I got a sub with a major orch and needed a major bass to play and since Unle Ken wouldn;t lend me the Gilkes (just kidding..) I asked my uncle if i could borrow his Klotz.

So i go to Baltimore to get the thing. Bring it home, take off the old gut strings , cut a new, bridge but there is not soundpost so i don't string it up.

I strart persusing the bass with a critical eye and what we have here friends is a plywood bass really old with a Klotz label in it.

Of course when I told my uncle he didn't beleive me until I took it back to him and showed him the plys with a mag glass...

beware anything labelled "klotz."
 
#27
KSB - Ken Smith said:
Bob, Beware is good advice but many instruments are what they say.
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Of course there are. What I'm attempting to say is that anyone who buys an instrument solely on the basis of a label is a fool. For people buying factory made instruments (i.e. mass produced), more often than not, the label will be accurate (atleast as to who imported it. For genuine old hand made instruments, it is absolutely essential that the buyer know as much as possible about the maker and the other instrument known to have been made to him. Any instrument that does not has a known history, is a good candidate for "buyer beware".
 
#28
KSB - Ken Smith said:
Paul, I looked thru my books and all I could find was that he was a "large handsome man". He played his Gasparo with higher action for more volume and most other Bass players could not play the Bass.

In the new Pio book the Bridge is measured at only 5.6" and the string length at 42.4 in. I missed that the first time.

He played in England for a long time and when he travelled to Italy, he would bring back a nice Italian Bass. Elgar mentions in book II that Dragonetti help to bring many Italian Basses back to England and is partly responsible for its wealth in Italian Basses.
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Thank you for all of this, Ken. In the photo with the bass, he was alledged to be 80 years old, so his size is probably less than when he was a younger man;- shrunken, as Paul said. In his younger days photography would have been experimental in practice and portraits still the province of painters. What you have brought to light does suggest a somewhat larger than average person with corresponding talents. Again, thank you for sharing the fruits of your studies.

This seems also to suggest that the fingerboard angle / bridge height of basses has increased over the past few centuries. Is this generally consistent with other historical instruments you have seen?
:)
 
#30
KSB - Ken Smith said:
A Klotz or Seitz NEVER had Violin corners from what I have seen. That Bass looks similar to the one with only 1 string on it. It may be the same Bass and looks anything but German !
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I hate to drag (pun intended) this up again but I when I was reading Paul Brun's book recently, which has a large blowup of the Dragonnetti picture, that bass clearly has Bussetto corners. I knew I wasn't imagining things! Could be a Del Bussetto (possible) or Prescott (highly doubtfull) but Klotz, Seitz or Hornsteiner for sure.

Jon
 
#31
jneuman said:
I hate to drag (pun intended) this up again but I when I was reading Paul Brun's book recently, which has a large blowup of the Dragonnetti picture, that bass clearly has Bussetto corners. I knew I wasn't imagining things! Could be a Del Bussetto (possible) or Prescott (highly doubtfull) but Klotz, Seitz or Hornsteiner for sure.

Jon
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I think you're right Jon.....I looked at it with my lighted magnifier, and it does look Busetto-ish.
What the hell can this mean?

Ken, we're posting too close to each other...i'll hold off.
 
#32
Paul Warburton said:
I think you're right Jon.....I looked at it with my lighted magnifier, and it does look Busetto-ish.
What the hell can this mean?

Ken, we're posting too close to each other...i'll hold off.
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LOL I don't think it's evidence of a big coverup or anything. The Dragster was know to collect and deal instruments, so my first guess would be that he had bought a German bass on his travels and stashed it at whatever venue that picture was taken at so as to avoid injuring his prized concert bass. It's interesing though that it's the only know photograph of the man, and the only proof of his playing anything but the famed Gasparo DaSalo. Ken?

Jon
 
#34
Heifetzbass said:
Maybe someone asked him to pose for a photo and handed him a bass...

BG :)
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A little off thread hit from the past....I saw an article with pictures in an old, old Downbeat Magazine involving the great Oscar Pettiford. The name of the article heading was "Hassle".
When he was living in Europe, he was doing a news clip or something having to do with taking movie pictures of Oscar and his band. His bass didn't show up in time for the action...they had another bass for him to "bass sync" on, but O.P. would have nothing to do with it...not without his own bass.( the sound track was already recorded ) So, he crawled under the piano and wouldn't come out!
So, next time things don't go your way, crawl under the piano......
 
#37
Don Zebrauskas said:
Has anyone mentioned that Dragonetti's da Salo was most likely a converted violone ?
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Yes, I did. However, Ken has evidence that the shoulders of that bass where cut, which leads one to believe that it was once of 'cello shape. So the questions remains, are we talking Violone as in large bass violin in Italy as per Brun, or Violone as in contrabass viol.

Jon
 
#38
KSB - Ken Smith said:
Does the name of the Ancient Relic really matter at this point? I would say not. If not for the books written about the Bass since Elgar, etc. not even 5% of the players would have a clue where and how the modern Double Bass has evolved. Now that we have books, at least 6% of the players are aware that the Modern Bass was not always as such!...... lol

By the way, on another note, it is starting to look like my Gilkes Bass was made not only as a Cello Shaped Strad copy but also had Cello pegs untill at least after 1850-1880 when it was cut and convered with the Gears that I just modified. The Gilkes was most likely not made for a player as it would have been too expensive even in those times for a working musician. Perhaps a wealthy amatuer or someone of 'stature' had it made for Chamber music or within a set of instruments.

Just a guess but looks more likely than any other theory to date......
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Interesting. Like some sort of earlier version of the new violin octet perhaps. I have read about earlier attampts to standardize the violin Family. Maybe this is one of those.
 

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