buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
And THIS is why I keep saying we need a rim-shot smilie.
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And THIS is why I keep saying we need a rim-shot smilie.
Too many people drawing a paycheck and get agency funding from the unwinnable war, to scrap the current system of arrest & incarceration in favor of treatment. Where's the short term profit in that?
And there's not much 'correction' going on in correctional facilities... other than the equivalent of standing in the corner and not interacting with other students during class. You play a lot of cards, lift some weights, BS a bit and exchange ideas with other criminals (probably make some new connections), maybe start reading the bible and sign up for Sunday church services just to break up the monotony. Sure, you'll white knuckle it thru any withdrawal symptoms and accumulate some clean time, but I don't think many of these places even offer addiction & mental health counseling. If you don't have your own support network in place upon your release, it's just a matter of time until you fall back into old habits or try some new tricks you may have learned in the joint. I don't have all the answers, but it seems to me there should be a separate place for users if your only crime has been for possession of something.
For those of you stuck on the position of a complete zero tolerance across the board, and saying that these injection sites send a message that it's just encouraging users... I'm positive that the Good Samaritan law alone (that's where you can bring an overdosing companion to an ER without fear of arrest) has saved many a life. Maybe that ER visit was the catalyst and wake up call that the user(s) needed to want to get out of the game, instead of leaving somebody to die in an alley while the rest of the group scatters like roaches for fear of arrest.
RCW 69.50.315: Medical assistance—Drug-related overdose—Prosecution for possession.
And there's not much 'correction' going on in correctional facilities... other than the equivalent of standing in the corner and not interacting with other students during class. You play a lot of cards, lift some weights, BS a bit and exchange ideas with other criminals (probably make some new connections), maybe start reading the bible and sign up for Sunday church services just to break up the monotony. Sure, you'll white knuckle it thru any withdrawal symptoms and accumulate some clean time, but I don't think many of these places even offer addiction & mental health counseling. If you don't have your own support network in place upon your release, it's just a matter of time until you fall back into old habits or try some new tricks you may have learned in the joint. I don't have all the answers, but it seems to me there should be a separate place for users if your only crime has been for possession of something.
For those of you stuck on the position of a complete zero tolerance across the board, and saying that these injection sites send a message that it's just encouraging users... I'm positive that the Good Samaritan law alone (that's where you can bring an overdosing companion to an ER without fear of arrest) has saved many a life. Maybe that ER visit was the catalyst and wake up call that the user(s) needed to want to get out of the game, instead of leaving somebody to die in an alley while the rest of the group scatters like roaches for fear of arrest.
RCW 69.50.315: Medical assistance—Drug-related overdose—Prosecution for possession.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
I haven't seen anyone here suggest zero tolerance. It is a matter of where to spend the money, what the goal should be, and the way to do the most good, both for the addict and society. We can't wave a magic wand and cure everything, so what CAN we do to do the most good? We each have our opinions. Frankly, getting someone to the ER is closer to drug treatment than free needles and sites.
Pastiche artiste that I am, kindly allow me this Bill Burroughs-style associative edit.
Gaolee
Official leathers tester and crash dummy
Yes. A developer bought something like five parcels with three commercial buildings on the arterial and three houses around the corner on the residential street I live on. The developer then evicted everyone before getting permits and financing put together, which resulted in those structures becoming an ungodly trash dump, shooting gallery, bicycle chop shop, and who knows what all else. There were drug deals going on there all night, strung out junkies occupying the sidewalk most of the time, trash everywhere. It was a mess. And then there was endless mail theft, car prowls, you name it. No assaults, which is a bit of a surprise with hindsight. There were three arsons. After the third one, the fire fighters told a neighbor to just wait a bit longer before calling it in so that the structures would just burn down. They were making a wry joke, since it could easily have spread to the rest of the block due to how close together the houses are.
This went on for a year. We fought with the developer to clean things up and secure the property if they weren't going to demolish the buildings, and they only made halfhearted attempts that were defeated almost immediately by the junkies, vagrants, and bicycle thieves who were using the property. Eventually, the City of Seattle sued the developer for this mess and another one like it somewhere else in the city. The property got leveled and the apartment building that was designed for the site is now under construction. That solved most of the problem, but the project superintendent still finds needles and reports theft. It's just a fact of life when there are so many junkies wandering around.
There's a food bank directly across the street from the site in question. Our concerns when that went in were centered around parking. We were assured that poor people don't drive. Having grown up in and around Appalachians and then having lived on the edge of Harlem, I can say from personal experience that poor people are just like everyone else and behave like everyone else when it comes to driving. So, that was the issue there, but it certainly compounded the problems we had with the development site because the junkies would get food from the food bank, strew it all over the place, and leave the mess.
Given the choice of all that, I'll take a supervised safe injection site or methadone clinic, thanks. None of the above would be even better, but everything is relative.
We've tried making these drugs illegal and that didn't solve the problem, it's only getting worse. What are we supposed to do? Make them "more illegaller"? I like that someone, somewhere, decided that the more of the same is not working and that perhaps a new tactic should be tried.
Sure, these drugs are still illegal under federal law but I keep hearing about "states' rights" on so many other issues, why not make drugs a states' rights issue too? For those that know some history will know that alcohol prohibition ended in part because the states refused to enforce a federal law they disagreed with. We saw women get the right to vote in federal elections in part because the states were letting women vote in state elections. History rarely repeats but it does tend to rhyme. We are seeing the start of the legalization of so many drugs right now.
The brain sees physical distress the same as mental distress, both register as "pain" and if a drug relieves pain then people will gravitate towards it when they experience pain. These addicts are self medicating for some physical or mental problem. Putting them in prison is not how a civilized society treats those with a health problem. I can understand that poor mental health can manifest as criminal behavior but where is the "crime" in being addicted to a drug? Taking opiates is not wrong in itself, they are routinely prescribed by physicians.
I remember reading some article on how veterans are much more likely to be taking opiates than the general public and therefore this must be some epidemic. Jordan Peterson, the psychologist that has gone viral recently, pointed out that no analyst will do a univariate study. Look at what other contributions that there might be for this. I suspect that some of this is from things like untreated PTSD but also to just the physical demands of going to war. These are people that have a high probability of getting beaten, burned, blown up, shot, stabbed, knocked about, and marched until they couldn't march no more. Veterans ending up as addicts means the VA has failed in treating pain.
We're seeing an improvement in the economy, although it's been a couple rocky days recently but that will pass. I suspect that as the economy improves more that more people will find their way out of addiction. Places where they can go to use drugs safely means more people will at least survive and/or more easily get out of the rut they've found themselves.
Sure, these drugs are still illegal under federal law but I keep hearing about "states' rights" on so many other issues, why not make drugs a states' rights issue too? For those that know some history will know that alcohol prohibition ended in part because the states refused to enforce a federal law they disagreed with. We saw women get the right to vote in federal elections in part because the states were letting women vote in state elections. History rarely repeats but it does tend to rhyme. We are seeing the start of the legalization of so many drugs right now.
The brain sees physical distress the same as mental distress, both register as "pain" and if a drug relieves pain then people will gravitate towards it when they experience pain. These addicts are self medicating for some physical or mental problem. Putting them in prison is not how a civilized society treats those with a health problem. I can understand that poor mental health can manifest as criminal behavior but where is the "crime" in being addicted to a drug? Taking opiates is not wrong in itself, they are routinely prescribed by physicians.
I remember reading some article on how veterans are much more likely to be taking opiates than the general public and therefore this must be some epidemic. Jordan Peterson, the psychologist that has gone viral recently, pointed out that no analyst will do a univariate study. Look at what other contributions that there might be for this. I suspect that some of this is from things like untreated PTSD but also to just the physical demands of going to war. These are people that have a high probability of getting beaten, burned, blown up, shot, stabbed, knocked about, and marched until they couldn't march no more. Veterans ending up as addicts means the VA has failed in treating pain.
We're seeing an improvement in the economy, although it's been a couple rocky days recently but that will pass. I suspect that as the economy improves more that more people will find their way out of addiction. Places where they can go to use drugs safely means more people will at least survive and/or more easily get out of the rut they've found themselves.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
States rights also allowed certain areas of the country to continue segregated schools years after Brown v. Board of Education - it was the calling card of the southern lawmakers though the 60s and 70s. And prohibition ended because the country wanted to drink, not because of state action.
We have a drug problem, and it is terrible. It has destroyed countless lives. But hard drugs are not going to become any more acceptable or helpful to society, no matter what we do with them.
We have a drug problem, and it is terrible. It has destroyed countless lives. But hard drugs are not going to become any more acceptable or helpful to society, no matter what we do with them.
What's the point of using public money to keep alive people who make routine choices that will kill them, and they know it, and they don't care?
For the users who want help, who want to kick the habit, reach out and get those people help.
For those who don't, it's just a waste of money creating an environment that supports their bad choices.
-Mike
For the users who want help, who want to kick the habit, reach out and get those people help.
For those who don't, it's just a waste of money creating an environment that supports their bad choices.
-Mike
I'd think that the safe drug use site inherently filters for the people that wish to survive. The people that don't care if they live or die would not go to a place that might save their life if they OD, no? For someone addicted the lack of more drugs is more than just physical withdrawal, it's the mental pain coming back as well. Those with the mental capacity to see that there is still life worth living will still experience the physical problems of not getting their drugs. Those that want to wean themselves off will seek a safe place to do it. Those that don't care will stay in the gutter.
At least that's how I see it.
By denying the safe drug use site because you'd rather see those that want to commit a slow suicide not waste your tax money means also denying the site to those that want to live and become a productive person again. The people that want to get better, and do not have a safe place to do it, will hide from the government out of fear of being put in prison. This also means making it difficult for those that want to help to find these people.
You say that those that want help should seek it. Okay, from where? Is that not what this kind of place does? I guess we could tell these people to go to hospitals and fire stations or something but they aren't equipped for this. This is a place equipped for dealing with the problem.
If the government is going to offer these addicts help then, again as I see it, the first thing they'd have to do is demonstrate they won't put them in prison for admitting to being an addict. Making it a felony to possess these drugs and offering help to those with the drugs seem contradictory, no? I guess if a felony conviction is defined as "help" then the government is "helping" the people that want it.
The only people who should be denied help are those who refuse it.
There has to be some kind of consequence for bad decisions, or there is no reason to stop making them. Dying sucks, but that's the tough realty of being an addict to drugs like these.
There are places now people who want help can go. They have them in the town I live, and many other places. If someone who wants help can't find it, they aren't looking very hard. At least in cities/towns of any decent size.
Prison isn't the answer, I agree.
How about you make them do the same thing millions of others do...work for a living?
As alluded to earlier, it's a tough pill to swallow for hard working people to know there's now a safe place, staffed with medical professionals that will help you for free if needed, to go and use your drugs.
This topic is very frustrating for me as I want to be compassionate to those who want help, and I know many do, but balancing that with the people who don't give a flying crap about anything beyond when they can get high again.
I really don't think the solution is all that complicated.
-Mike
Gaolee
Official leathers tester and crash dummy
This is exactly why we should offer opportunities for those who want to pull themselves out of addiction. And why we shouldn't spend a whole lot of effort doing much more than containing the damage caused by those who don't. Based on my own observations and experience, a safe injection site is a containment tool. It also provides a means for those who provide help out of addiction to connect with those who would get on with it. I'm not being altruistic here. I think it's probably the cheapest way to address the problem. The police spend an inordinate amount of time dealing with junkie behavior, not to mention damage cause by fires set by junkies on porches or in brush piles because they wanted a cooking fire and were too strung out to understand that fire where they were is a bad idea. And the assaults, occasional murder, endless bicycle and mail theft, and everything else. Contain the problem. That doesn't mean make life easy for junkies. It means the opposite. It means there doesn't have to be any tolerance of that kind of thing elsewhere.
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