drummer question

[lexington125]

We’re going to be asking our drummer to step way outside his comfort zone and join us as we try to work up a few very simple jazz tunes. Let’s use the original Jazztet version of “Killer Joe” as the example. Our talented, but very young drummer has successfully grown from a basic rock drummer to a solid shuffle player, but I can honestly say that he has never *once* even heard any of the few jazz songs we are considering.

For a guy who picked up the basics of the shuffle as quickly as any of us could have hoped (and he continues to improve and learn new variations, etc.), how hard will it be for him to learn the most basic version of what I call “swingin’ on the ride cymbal” ? We don’t expect him to morph into Philly Joe Jones overnight, or to fool anyone who knows anything about jazz. But if he can keep time, while playing something that sounds like a jazz drum part, we’d be thrilled.

A couple of questions:

· Is there a popular jazz standard that includes something like a somewhat simplified, drum pattern based around that swinging ride cymbal pattern that us ignorant types identify as basic jazz drumming?

· Is there a simple set of rules to follow that would enable a rock and blues drummer to sound like a basic jazz drummer? (something similar to the “snare on 2 and 4, kick on 1 and 3, and eighth note pattern on hi-hat for RnR?)

· Assuming we are not trying to pass ourselves off as anything other than a blues band fooling around on a simple jazz tune, is there anything else that would help our drum guy?

Thanks

 

[Mushroo]

Most musicians improve in one or both of two methods: listening and/or instruction.

"Lessons with a jazz drum instructor" would be a pretty obvious response, but let's say that instruction is not an option for whatever reason. "Instructional books and DVDs" is another popular answer, but for some reason I don't think that's the kind of advice you're looking for.

That leaves listening as the only option. He should put the songs he's trying to learn on his headphones, and listen to them all day, every day, until he gets the feel for the rhythm. And at least 1 hour a day, every day, should be spent actually playing his drums along to those recordings. (Transcribing, too, if he has that skill set. And if he doesn't, now is a great time to learn it!)

"Killer Joe" is only 4:17 long, so if he can learn, say, 30-40 seconds per day, then he can learn the entire song in about a week. Hopefully he has a good ear and will be able to quickly learn to imitate the drum tracks on these songs, so your band can give a convincing performance.

What are the songs, by the way? "Killer Joe" is a good tune, what else?

 

[lexington125]

Thanks 'Shrooms.

Appreciate the reply, but I want to make sure you understand, we are looking at a more basic approach. Not looking for him to learn the songs so much as learn something that would sound appropriate to casual listeners in a bar. That's why I was talking about a simple pattern that "sounds like jazz drumming" similar to the "snare on 2 and 4, etc..." pattern that sounds like rocknroll. We are not a jazz band, we're looking for something to play for 3 or 4 minutes while the singer 'takes 5'. (and we want to do something significantly different from our set, so that everyone understands this ins't our set, we are just killing time (and entertaining audience) until singer is ready) This is also why I want to limit the diiscussion to 'Killer Joe' - We're not looking to help him learn 3 jazz songs; we want him to learn a basic swing pattern that he can pull out whenever we want to play 'pretend jazz' for 3 minutes. [I've got it easy; my limited skill set works for the 'serious' blues and the not at all serious jazz. - I walk over both; but on the semi-jazz I can play some things I just wouldn't do during the blues set.]

 

[Chris204T]

A couple of questions:

· Is there a popular jazz standard that includes something like a somewhat simplified, drum pattern based around that swinging ride cymbal pattern that us ignorant types identify as basic jazz drumming?

· Is there a simple set of rules to follow that would enable a rock and blues drummer to sound like a basic jazz drummer? (something similar to the “snare on 2 and 4, kick on 1 and 3, and eighth note pattern on hi-hat for RnR?)


Do everyone a favor and tell him to take his foot off the bass drum pedal completely. The one thing you don't want in jazz is bass drum on 1,2,3,4 or even 1&3. You really don't need it at all, it is used to accent figures only. Hi hat, played with the foot, on 2&4, just a short "chick" sound. Ride cymbal can be as simple as quarter notes on each beat or "that swinging ride cymbal pattern" as you call it. Snare is used for occasional accents also. Snare on 2&4 is not necessary to play all the time. Save it for when the band really gets cooking. If he is a good drummer, he can listen to a few recordings of the kind of songs you want to do and he will pick it up on his own.

 

[Nev375]

I'm sure there's more than a handful of bassists here who are also skilled with drums.
I've dabbled a bit with them myself. But I can't answer your question.

I think you should post this question on a drummers forum.

 

[Mushroo]

Thanks 'Shrooms.

Appreciate the reply, but I want to make sure you understand, we are looking at a more basic approach. Not looking for him to learn the songs so much as learn something that would sound appropriate to casual listeners in a bar. That's why I was talking about a simple pattern that "sounds like jazz drumming" similar to the "snare on 2 and 4, etc..." pattern that sounds like rocknroll. We are not a jazz band, we're looking for something to play for 3 or 4 minutes while the singer 'takes 5'. (and we want to do something significantly different from our set, so that everyone understands this ins't our set, we are just killing time (and entertaining audience) until singer is ready) This is also why I want to limit the diiscussion to 'Killer Joe' - We're not looking to help him learn 3 jazz songs; we want him to learn a basic swing pattern that he can pull out whenever we want to play 'pretend jazz' for 3 minutes. [I've got it easy; my limited skill set works for the 'serious' blues and the not at all serious jazz. - I walk over both; but on the semi-jazz I can play some things I just wouldn't do during the blues set.]

If I were in this young drummer's shoes, I would say to you, "give me a playlist of songs you want me to listen to." Then I would go to my practice room and copy what the drummer is doing on these recordings. Maybe not note-for-note at first (although that is the goal) but enough to get the general feel. Next week, I'd come to rehearsal, and I'd say, "I think I got the feel for it. Let's try 'Killer Joe' in a jazz style, I'll count it off: 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 4."

However it sounds like you don't want him to learn actual drum beats from from famous recordings, for whatever reason. You want to be his drum instructor. But (no offense) you are not qualified to be a jazz drum instructor, so I doubt you will succeed, and you might even teach him bad habits that another teacher will need to undo at a future date! There is nothing you can teach this kid that will help him more than drumming along to a classic jazz record.

You should either pick a song and say, "play a beat like you hear in this song," or you should chip in and buy him a drum lesson or instructional DVD. "Listen to this song and copy what the drummer does" is a totally reasonable and accomplishable goal for any beginner musician. "Understand how to construct a jazz beat" is actually a much more difficult task.

 

[Mushroo]

ps "chip in and buy him an instructional DVD" is old-man talk for "go on YouTube and search for 'beginner jazz drum lessons'."

Is this the type of pattern you want him to learn?

 

[lexington125]

, for whatever reason. You want to be his drum instructor. But (no offense) you are not qualified to be a jazz drum instructor, so I doubt you will succeed, and you might even teach him bad habits that another teacher will need to undo at a future date! There is nothing you can teach this kid that will help him more than drumming along to a classic jazz record.

Or......you could accept that I don't want to spend all day explaining the months long experiences of a band who just wants to throw together some time-killing filler. and that I tried to ask a question as clearly as I could, without turning this into a novel. I don't want to teach anyone anything; I've been asked "what should I play" and I came here for advice. Live and learn

Chris204T - thanks, I'll suggest he stays off the kick

 

[Mushroo]

Or......you could accept that I don't want to spend all day explaining the months long experiences of a band who just wants to throw together some time-killing filler. and that I tried to ask a question as clearly as I could, without turning this into a novel. I don't want to teach anyone anything; I've been asked "what should I play" and I came here for advice. Live and learn

Was the instructional video I posted unhelpful? Welcome to talkbass General Instruction.

 

[brokeamp]

Bass is quarter notes on all four beats (quieter than usual), snare two and four, swing the ride symbol. High hat on two and four. Fill with triplets until you get the swing feel down. Accent what other people are doing with the snare sometimes. Fake jazz drumming accomplished. Want to learn more I am sure Jared Falk has a video.

 

[lexington125]

Was the instructional video I posted unhelpful? Welcome to talkbass General Instruction.

No, it may be exactly what is needed; I just won't see the drumer agin until next week. Thanks.

 

[bassinplace]

Bass is quarter notes on all four beats (quieter than usual), snare two and four, swing the ride symbol. High hat on two and four. Fill with triplets until you get the swing feel down. Accent what other people are doing with the snare sometimes. Fake jazz drumming accomplished. Want to learn more I am sure Jared Falk has a video.

This. Bass drum is four on the floor, hats on two and four, walk the dog on the ride cymbal, syncopation on snare and toms.

 

[bassinplace]

No, it may be exactly what is needed; I just won't see the drumer agin until next week. Thanks.

Yep, that vid sums it up for him very well.

 

[Spin Doctor]

This. Bass drum is four on the floor, hats on two and four, walk the dog on the ride cymbal, syncopation on snare and toms.

In jazz, bass drum is absolutely NOT four on the floor, unless you are intentionally trying to sound corny. You don't want to be on the bass drum at all for the most part. It's only for droppin' bombs

 

[bassinplace]

In jazz, bass drum is absolutely NOT four on the floor, unless you are intentionally trying to sound corny. You don't want to be on the bass drum at all for the most part. It's only for droppin' bombs

I don't mean like John Bonham. It should be played very lightly to where it is more felt than heard. Dynamics and note choices depend what fit the song, but the op is just asking for a rudimentary pattern.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I don't mean like John Bonham. It should be played very lightly to where it is more felt than heard. Dynamics and note choices depend what fit the song, but the op is just asking for a rudimentary pattern.

No. Four on the floor, is four on the floor. No kick on the 1,2,3,4 no kick on the 1 and 3. No kick, unless you know what your are doing.

I've heard jazz hacked and butchered way too much to not say something about this. But it will happen anyway. I hate that. My feeling is that if he attempts to play it, I think he should attempt to play it like it means something. Playing a rudimentary pattern has nothing to do with sounding like crap.

But anyway.... It is what it is.

 

[bassinplace]

No. Four on the floor, is four on the floor. No kick on the 1,2,3,4 no kick on the 1 and 3. No kick, unless you know what your are doing.

I've heard jazz hacked and butchered way too much to not say something about this. But it will happen anyway. I hate that. My feeling is that if he attempts to play it, I think he should attempt to play it like it means something. Playing a rudimentary pattern has nothing to do with sounding like crap.

But anyway.... It is what it is.

Okay, you're the expert. I've only been playing drums for 25 years, but what do I know? Nothing.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Okay, you're the expert. I've only been playing drums for 25 years, but what do I know? Nothing.

Well, if my drummer played like that, I'd have to ask him what he thought he was doing. plenty of guys have played longer than you and still sound corny as hell, But hey... It's whatever

 

[bassinplace]

Okay, you're the expert.

Well, if my drummer played like that, I'd have to ask him what he thought he was doing. plenty of guys have played longer than you and still sound corny as hell, But hey... It's whatever

Your powers of comprehension appear to be low, so...yeah. It's whatever. Lol.

 

[MarkM13]

I've been a drummer for 35 years and a bassist (if I qualify for that title) for 9 months. As such, I think I can lend some simplistic yet effective insight.
In rock and funk the time is projected/felt by the snare drum bass drum combination. Think of a simple tune like "Back In Black" the 1&3 in the kick and 2&4 in the snare propel the tune. More complex tunes like "The Imigrent Song" or "Tom Sawyer" are propelled by more clomplex relationships but the kick/snare combo are still the driving force. The ride is providing the subdivisions and left foot supporting the pulse.

In jazz drumming the roles are reversed. The ride is the propelling factor with the HH providing the back beat. The kick and snare provide subdivisions and accents. The kick should be thought of as a larger tom for low accents. It's function has no bearing to its role in the rock setting.
However, and this is a big one, the main subdivision is in the ride. In the 1 2-let 3 4-let. The "let" here refers to the last note of the triplet as in 1 trip-let. This is where lack of experience shows as most rockers find subdividing in groups of three foreign.

I would have him practice just the ride and HH playing along with the likes of someone like Jimmy Cobb or Papa Joe Jones. Guys that can swing you into bad health with minimal notes. Again focus is on the ride and hat only. Have him record himself so he can listen and compare. This is vital.

Avoid immersing him in Williams, Haynes, Elvin, Jack D. et. al. He just won't get it.

HTH