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Drummer won't play the same fill twice

adchaino

adchaino

Dec 28, 2012
13
2
Denver, CO
#1
That's basically the problem.
The drummer plays fills differently each time and refuses to settle on something that I could learn and sync with because that's how he "feels it" and I'm just "too OCD about it".
I don't actually want to double the fills, but I think we've got to keep the same rhythm to a degree. So now I just wing it (which - I feel - kills the groove and is sloppy overall; me being an average player doesn't help either).
I guess I can try to find a(the) pattern(s) in his fills or just try to learn all of them with time (he can't have that many, can he?).
Any advice?
Thanks.
 
#5
I find it easier to listen for the drummer's kicks for inspiration. I almost never play everything the exact same way each and every time unless it is a signature part of the tune. Then the syncopation must be perfect as that is what the audience expects to hear.
 
#6
hdracer said:
as long as they hit the 1 & 3 right I don't care what else they do.
Click to expand...

Assuming the drummer hit the 1 correctly at the top of a section, for me it's the 2 and 4. How the snare feels relative to the 2 and 4 (i.e. on top of it for a simple back beat, played double-time, played behind it for less of a "rock" feel, etc.) is what defines how the drums feel. Again, this is assuming that the drummer nailed the 1 at the top of the section.
 
#7
Some musicians always play it the same way.
Some musicians will never, ever play it the same way twice.
Most are somewhere in the middle.

You will never get a player at one extreme to switch personality to the opposite.

I myself am a good example. I was in a band for a while where the guitarist wanted me to play the exact same bass lines every night. I explained to him "You are not paying me, this band is just for fun, so I am going to do what is most fun for me, which is jam and improvise. If you are looking for someone to play the same thing over and over again every night, then I'm not the right bass player for the band."

They have a new bass player. ;)

Now, back to your situation and specific question: If you are paying the drummer, and he refuses to play it the way you want, tell him to shape up or he's fired. But if you're not paying him, then you're not his boss. :)
 
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#8
adchaino said:
I don't actually want to double the fills, but I think we've got to keep the same rhythm to a degree.
Click to expand...


If he's filling, try keeping the groove. Fill when he's keeping the groove. If everyone fills at the end of a phrase, you get Dixieland every 8 bars.
 
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#9
The bass and drums should be playing off each other. The only thing that gets my attention about the OP is that it sounds like the drummer is doing his own thing and not responding to the rest of the band.

My favorite drummer to play with was when I was in a blues trio (bass/drums/guitar&vocal). There was a lot of room for improvisation, and we got to the point where the drummer and I could sense where the other was going and play some neat if subtle complementary parts. It was kind of like we were telling inside jokes through our playing. It was all in support of the song, of course, and thankfully the guitar player was cool with it.

Bring it up with the drummer again but instead of framing it as playing the same vs. different fills, ask him to help you know what he's going to do so that you'll be able to react appropriately. Then listen to his playing and really hear what he's doing, and what he does to vary the fills. You probably won't hear a finite set of fills, but you will begin to hear the themes that the drummer is hearing as he plays. If it helps, focus on just one part of his playing, like the bass drum, or the snare, etc.

Whatever happens though, everyone MUST hit the next downbeat together.
 
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#11
Getting the groove on with the drummer is everything...and you can't make that happen if he plays like a schitz. Don't be afraid to look for a drummer that plays with you, not against you.
 
#12
adchaino said:
That's basically the problem.
The drummer plays fills differently each time and refuses to settle on something that I could learn and sync with because that's how he "feels it" and I'm just "too OCD about it".
I don't actually want to double the fills, but I think we've got to keep the same rhythm to a degree. So now I just wing it (which - I feel - kills the groove and is sloppy overall; me being an average player doesn't help either).
I guess I can try to find a(the) pattern(s) in his fills or just try to learn all of them with time (he can't have that many, can he?).
Any advice?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

What kind of music are you playing? Country? Rock?, Metal?, Pop?, Jazz?...
From your posting I could conclude that either
1. the drummer thinks he/she is "more" advanced then you and, kind of, ignores your inquisitive mind,
or
2. the drummer is not too serious about your band (it's about "ME"),
or
3. the drummer is young and inexperienced.

Anyway, it's difficult to discuss too much without your band's audio, but
it would be a good idea to talk to the drummer and learn his opinion on drum fills, his vision about the style you are playing, his favorite bass and drum players, etc...
Second, ask him if ONLY the drummer has the right to ALWAYS play fills.
Could those fills be shared with the bass player or other musicians?
Could, at least one of his/her "famous" fills be "enhanced/embellished" by adding the bass (maybe partly)? (What I call - stapling the fill/tightening the band.)

P.S. Just record your rehearsals and listen at home.
 
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#13
Just listen to him. You should be able to kind of expect the trajectory of the fill by the second or third hit. When in doubt, let it breathe.

In other words, stop trying to hit the fills with him and hit the fills with him. Be like water and don't miss out on the heavenry grory.
 
#14
Thanks everyone. That helps a lot. Now I have a better picture of what I should do and what I should expect from the drummer.

A bit more background: it's a 3-month-old band and we've done mostly covers (Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Metallica, RHCP) and are just starting with some originals (hard-rock/alternative I guess), but we've all been playing on and off for 10-15 years (the drummer - maybe even 20). I switched to bass 5 years ago from guitar. Can't say I'm great - still a lot to learn (I'm self-taught), but OK - and I'm always the first to ask for criticism or point out my own mistakes.

I may have just realized the biggest source of my confusion - I've been lucky (or unlucky - depending on your point of view) up until now to play with the drummers who tried to be as close to the original as possible (as I try to when doing covers), or were very consistent when improvising/playing originals. So, I may have been a bit too hard on the current guy. It's odd that I never had this kind of problem before - it was just... easy.

INTP is probably right - the drummer does tend to "do his own thing" too much. I don't mind him having fun. That's what we're in here for. None of us is getting paid yet, so it's all good. I mind inconsistency though. Firstly, if we're doing a cover and he plays a fill in one spot, I expect a fill to be there (of the same length hopefully) the next time we play the same song. Which doesn't always happen and leaves me looking like an idiot who doesn't know what he's playing. That's unpleasant even if the crowd didn't notice. Secondly, his fills aren't always the same rhythmically. I'm really into polyrythms by the way, but again not knowing what to expect makes me enjoy playing less. He says he's been playing in a lot of bands, but I have a gut feeling he's not used to listening to the rest of the band.

So, I'll look at this as a chance to become a better player and I hope I'll get a feel of his style soon. He seems to be a cool guy otherwise. Now, I'll just have to keep watching him all the time (funny cause he says my staring makes him nervous :)
 
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#17
Personally, I'm always responding to the drummer rather than trying to play with him. That's how we worked things out over the course of our looking back at recordings and seeing when it was grooving the most. But it was a conversation that set things in stone and gave us rules for engagement. Perhaps the thing for the OP to do is have that sort of a look back with the drummer and figure out how to best play together. I also think that a drummer should vary the fills wildly to keep the rhythm section interesting and fluid, especially when the bass is doing a very straight ahead repetitive part.
 
#18
as long as they're not triplet fills. Our drummer is very good, not too loud, really happy with him except . . . he loves triplet fills. The singer's trying to come back into the verse and sing his straight eighth notes over quarter note or eighth note triplets. Really rather difficult to do! from a bass playing view I love to sync up with the fills Geddy style, but if he won't cooperate, do your own thing.
 
#19
Won't or can't?

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#20
I wouldn't want my drummer to play the same fill twice.

I like what Pacman suggested, though. There's basically two-types of cover bands:
1) those that slavishly replicate the original recording
2) those that stay true to the original spirit, but make the song their own.

I prefer being "2)", but maybe only because I'm incapable of "1)"; and I certainly respect anybody that can nail the original recording.

A third way of doing a cover is where an originals band does a cover, but in a radically different way than the original, such as Cake's cover of "I Will Survive".

I don't get to play with drummers often enough, so there's that – count yourself lucky you get to play with a drummer!
 

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