Drummers who don't count?

[Jev1]

No.. we aren't talking about drummers that don't matter.... in this sense I mean count as in timing.

Let me give y'all a little back story: last band practice our guitarist/lead singer (3 piece grunge/metal band) couldn't make it, so the drummer and I sat down and broke down some parts of a few of our songs that we were having timing issues on. At one point in time we were playing along to one of our recordings and I told him I needed him to crash at the end of the "4" of the chorus, not on the "1" of the guitar solo that follows, and he admitted that he doesn't count when he plays and most of the time he just "wings it". (This explains a lot about why he's often a bar or two 1/4 notes behind us, and why he doesn't always play the same fills).

I count EVERYTHING, all the time.. by this I mean every time I play our songs I see everything in numbers and thought everyone else did too. I have been trying to give the drummer hints when things are changing.. (ie with a small fill). But this conversation got me thinking about how common it is for drummers to not be counting all the time. Playing by feel is one thing, but how can you play percussion withOUT counting? Even if most of what we play is 4/4 you still have to anticipate when the changes are happening.

Am I being too narrow minded? You can play melodies without an understanding of theory.. but I still think understanding intervals is super important. I just always assume people who feel the beat are feeling a count of some kind.

 

[LBS-bass]

I would guess very few count throughout an entire song. I feel in groups of four intuitively but I will count through a difficult rhythmic passage as many times as it takes to get it into memory. Then I usually don't need to.

I am annoyed with players who won't count to get in sync when they aren't otherwise nailing it. We all learned to count in grade school and it isn't asking a lot but for some reason it seems to be beyond some folks when music is involved.

 

[ShadowGroover]

Not only does he not count, it's unlikely that he's even listening, or has ever bothered to learn the songs.

Skilled musicians execute their music. Bad ones murder it

 

[turf3]

...I am annoyed with players who won't count to get in sync ...

I'd rather have no count-off than a bad one. I'm always astonished at the number of reasonably competent players who can't count 1-2-3-4 in the tempo of the tune. How hard can it be?

 

[DWBass]

I know a couple guys who don't count or 'hear' the song in their heads. Got into an argument with one of them about counting. He wasn't a bad drummer though. He had other issues.

 

[Jev1]

Not only does he not count, it's unlikely that he's even listening, or has ever bothered to learn the songs.

Skilled musicians execute their music. Bad ones murder it

Well it's safe to say he IS listening, because when we change from a verse to pre to chorus he does change it up.. it's just sometimes a 1/4 note or two behind us. Haha. I just always assumed he was forgetful. But I see your point.

 

[dalkowski]

Several bands and more decades ago, our drummer couldn't for love, money, or pizza come out of a roll on the 1. We dubbed him "master of the roll to nowhere."

 

[Jev1]

I know a couple guys who don't count or 'hear' the song in their heads. Got into an argument with one of them about counting. He wasn't a bad drummer though. He had other issues.

That's the thing.. he is not a bad drummer either. We have been playing together for almost 4 years and this is the first time it has come up, so he (for the most part) does alright with "winging it"... but the lack of counting now puts a few things into perspective for me. And I guess my biggest hurdle is being able to communicate what I need from the drums in a song to make it all tight.

 

[darwin-bass]

I don't count. At least not routinely. Sometimes I even have to pause to think about the time signature. If timing becomes a challenge I'll quickly resort to counting. Or to help the other band members figure out where to come in. But when I'm playing, I'm just playing.

I'm that way on bass.
I'm that way on guitar.
I'm that way on drums.

 

[fishdude101101]

Not only does he not count, it's unlikely that he's even listening, or has ever bothered to learn the songs.

Skilled musicians execute their music. Bad ones murder it

Drummers who can't play other instruments hear things differently in my opinion. More like nin musicians hear things.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Can't / Won't count = sloppy result.

I recall practicing once with a drummer and guitarist. Couldn't figure out what the drummer was playing. I stopped everyone and asked the drummer, "What are you playing in such and such a part?" His response: "I don't know, I'm just winging it." That band didn't last long!

 

[InhumanResource]

No.. we aren't talking about drummers that don't matter.... in this sense I mean count as in timing.

Let me give y'all a little back story: last band practice our guitarist/lead singer (3 piece grunge/metal band) couldn't make it, so the drummer and I sat down and broke down some parts of a few of our songs that we were having timing issues on. At one point in time we were playing along to one of our recordings and I told him I needed him to crash at the end of the "4" of the chorus, not on the "1" of the guitar solo that follows, and he admitted that he doesn't count when he plays and most of the time he just "wings it". (This explains a lot about why he's often a bar or two 1/4 notes behind us, and why he doesn't always play the same fills).

I count EVERYTHING, all the time.. by this I mean every time I play our songs I see everything in numbers and thought everyone else did too. I have been trying to give the drummer hints when things are changing.. (ie with a small fill). But this conversation got me thinking about how common it is for drummers to not be counting all the time. Playing by feel is one thing, but how can you play percussion withOUT counting? Even if most of what we play is 4/4 you still have to anticipate when the changes are happening.

Am I being too narrow minded? You can play melodies without an understanding of theory.. but I still think understanding intervals is super important. I just always assume people who feel the beat are feeling a count of some kind.

I don't count anything unless it is in an odd meter. Otherwise I know where 1 is, I know how to feel 4 or 8 or 12 or whatever it is in terms of measures, and I know the tune.

Having said that, any musician (not just drummers) should be able to execute if asked to do something on 1 or 3 or the and of 2 in a given measure of asked…but that doesn't mean we're counting, we just know where it is.

 

[crazyBassClown]

I don't explicitly count very often, and if I do it's usually to try and convey something to someone else.
I also often will have to count to identify a time signature even after happily playing the song many times.
I just internalise the structure of the song and play it as it is.
Just recently our drummer was having problems with the intro to comin down by the angels and until this point I hadn't realised it is in 7/8 rather than the songs 4/4. I suspect the angels didn't really think of it that way either. They just played it.

I'm always astonished at the number of reasonably competent players who can't count 1-2-3-4 in the tempo of the tune. How hard can it be?

Gotta love someone who counts in a song and then proceeds to play at a different tempo.

 

[Lenny JG]

As musicians?

 

[Cave Puppy]

I played with a drummer. He wasn't a musician. He had metronomes all over the place and still had terrible groove. It was either me or him. It was him. I'm not in that band anymore but they are still using the drummer I recommended.

 

[Ekulati]

Geez, are you kidding me? (I started as a drummer at age 5.)

 

[Roland GR 88]

Eye contact.
He needs to expect a look and big eyebrows from you as the changes lead up. Eventually he'll start to remember them.
Hopefully.

 

[themickster]

No.. we aren't talking about drummers that don't matter.... in this sense I mean count as in timing.

Let me give y'all a little back story: last band practice our guitarist/lead singer (3 piece grunge/metal band) couldn't make it, so the drummer and I sat down and broke down some parts of a few of our songs that we were having timing issues on. At one point in time we were playing along to one of our recordings and I told him I needed him to crash at the end of the "4" of the chorus, not on the "1" of the guitar solo that follows, and he admitted that he doesn't count when he plays and most of the time he just "wings it". (This explains a lot about why he's often a bar or two 1/4 notes behind us, and why he doesn't always play the same fills).

I count EVERYTHING, all the time.. by this I mean every time I play our songs I see everything in numbers and thought everyone else did too. I have been trying to give the drummer hints when things are changing.. (ie with a small fill). But this conversation got me thinking about how common it is for drummers to not be counting all the time. Playing by feel is one thing, but how can you play percussion withOUT counting? Even if most of what we play is 4/4 you still have to anticipate when the changes are happening.

Am I being too narrow minded? You can play melodies without an understanding of theory.. but I still think understanding intervals is super important. I just always assume people who feel the beat are feeling a count of some kind.

I only count if it's a new beat, and not always.

 

[Topkat13]

Maybe the guy isn't capable of playing the way you want. The question is can he hold the groove? Poor timing is not just a drummer issue…not implying it's yours. Maybe join another band or get another drummer? I'm not in a position to comment regarding your narrow minded inquiry.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

I think you need to be able to count to know what you're doing, but once you do, you can forget about it as you internalize the music.

But yes, you need to be able to count. If the fills are in all the wrong places, he's not even feeling it right, which should be a warning sign, especially if your playing mostly 4/4 songs in even number phrases.