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Drummers who don't count?
- Thread starter Jev1
- Start date
Oh man
I can't be tight with a drummer who won't play the song consistently.
Random fills are sloppy fills.
Count, not count, 4s, 8s...bottom line ..you better know where the one is.
Asking Jerry Garcia..Where is the one? he answers Its where you think it is
Asking Jerry Garcia..Where is the one? he answers Its where you think it is
Folks- its not the counting-its the meter that makes it musical. If you can't get a drummer to play both 4/4 and 6/8 as different meters, then you need a new drummer. Counting just makes it possible to get the meter feeling correct. Otherwise, it is all a crap shoot.
Oh, yea, a memory is coming back. Christmas at church a few years ago. One song was in (I think?) 7/4 with some measures of 5/8 or something like that. I HAD to count that one like crazy. Eventually I got the feel and the counting wasn't needed as much.
Drummer never figured it out because he refused to spend the time at home to learn it. In desperation he Brough in the sheet music. It was like 7 pages wide. He tried to read it and got lost. I think we eventually did with just bass / mandolin / guitar and no drums.
Oh, dear.
You want to toss in a random measure of 3/4 or 5/4 and tell me that it's all feel?
I think some people here have never really been challenged. And this probably explains why we get such weird responses when we encounter things that need to be counted.
Of all of my drummer relationships, my most fruitful was with a drummer who couldn't tell the difference between meter, pulse, and time signatures.
He and I made magic together as long as we didn't talk about it too much beforehand. It drove me nuts for about the first year. Once I learned to live with it, we were good.
He and I made magic together as long as we didn't talk about it too much beforehand. It drove me nuts for about the first year. Once I learned to live with it, we were good.
In the decades I've been playing, I've had the pleasure / luck of playing with 8 drummers who I consider very good drummers. I've played for short periods with about a half dozen who were mediocre or below.
Of the 8 very good drummers, I think two of them counted. All the others played by just feel.
I think all of the average or below drummers counted everything, and still screwed up regularly.
Of the 8 very good drummers, I think two of them counted. All the others played by just feel.
I think all of the average or below drummers counted everything, and still screwed up regularly.
That's likely because needing to count everything tends to be an intermediate level thing. Knowing what to count and when to count is something that happens when you've learned how to count but figured out you don't always have to, and usually don't.
Nothing wrong with any of it. This is how we progress.
I count bars when required.
On an odd side note, I unconsciously mimic the kick and snare with my teeth when I play or listening to music.
My brother, a drummer, does the same thing.
Dentist has been trying to get me to stop for years.
On an odd side note, I unconsciously mimic the kick and snare with my teeth when I play or listening to music.
My brother, a drummer, does the same thing.
Dentist has been trying to get me to stop for years.
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Musicians count, non-musicians don't.
Talented non-musicians can possibly get away with it, or repetition can make it seem like they are are counting; but musicians knowing the count won't miss it, ever. This is the stuff that gets taught in junior high school band. I can't even imagine a teacher in percussion telling his student it's not necessary to count. So your talented drummer needs some basics training - he will be that much better for it.
Talented non-musicians can possibly get away with it, or repetition can make it seem like they are are counting; but musicians knowing the count won't miss it, ever. This is the stuff that gets taught in junior high school band. I can't even imagine a teacher in percussion telling his student it's not necessary to count. So your talented drummer needs some basics training - he will be that much better for it.
At the start when they click 1-2-1-2-3-4 for no discernible reason like al drummers do, what beat do they transition on?
I'm constantly counting and I'm playing the song in my head as I'm playing.
By the way, I've played with drummers who count off in a totally different tempo from the song we're actually playing. Just weird.
By the way, I've played with drummers who count off in a totally different tempo from the song we're actually playing. Just weird.
meh. That's a craftsman's take. Legitimate, but only from a technician POV.
Musicality can be so much more than technical acumen.
In song, the heart rules. The feel and expression. It's what touches the listeners. Maybe it is counted, maybe not. Doesn't matter. If it moves, it moves.
Yep, many people don't count. One would hope that drummer, could do a groove exercise based on song forms but many don't. Have you asked him if you could go through a song of just him and the singer sings the melody. No fills please
Counting is fine but you have to go beyond that, Counting is like focusing on the individual connectors of a lego block. You need to think in blocks or group of blocks. But you need to be aware of the edges of those blocks. . Eye contact and body language helps.
Having said that, I think everybody including the singer should have a practice pad and a drumstick or some sort of muffled percussion. And drummers should be trained in a way that for the first 6 months, they only get to have a 2 piece set, snare and bass drum and a hi-hat. Or drummers now should try to support a song with only a 2 piece. Guys that do this become very tight drummers.
Good bass players can correct bad drummers although some maybe beyond correction. Good luck.
Counting is fine but you have to go beyond that, Counting is like focusing on the individual connectors of a lego block. You need to think in blocks or group of blocks. But you need to be aware of the edges of those blocks. . Eye contact and body language helps.
Having said that, I think everybody including the singer should have a practice pad and a drumstick or some sort of muffled percussion. And drummers should be trained in a way that for the first 6 months, they only get to have a 2 piece set, snare and bass drum and a hi-hat. Or drummers now should try to support a song with only a 2 piece. Guys that do this become very tight drummers.
Good bass players can correct bad drummers although some maybe beyond correction. Good luck.
This "issue"; as many other threads in TB; is recurrent. I don't know why would one count every beat of a song in his head. That pretty much defeats much of music playing enjoyment. Well if your thing is maths and prog-Metal I don't see why not.
Drummers will count when needed just like any other musician. There's this old utterly narrow minded notion that the drummer's JOB is to keep time; if you want that, use a metronome not a drummer.
Drummers will count when needed just like any other musician. There's this old utterly narrow minded notion that the drummer's JOB is to keep time; if you want that, use a metronome not a drummer.
Whatever that means
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
I feel you! I once worked with a "conguero" whose sole qualifications were that he owned congas and was the BL's brother-in-law. We once wasted a large part of a rehearsal (Santana tribute medley) learning that he could not count at all, and had no idea what the rest of us meant when we referred to the beat "on the AND of four."
