The Ramones used their bass player to count in every song....
( ONE TWO THREE FOUR!!!)
And they did alright.
( ONE TWO THREE FOUR!!!)
And they did alright.
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Drummers who don't count?
- Thread starter Jev1
- Start date
People who don't read music are a lot less likely to count, not just drummers. Like other things, counting becomes implicit if you do it enough and you've learned the part.
I thought I was good at it until I played in a handbell choir, where you play 4 notes (say, C5-Eb5) and have to play just your notes within the melody, written with all the surrounding notes. (If you know, you know.) You can't do that by feel; you have to count.
But playing ostinato patterns in 4/4 without written music? You can totally fake it. You have to learn the song structure, of course, and count measures or sections (as opposed to beats and their subdivisions). Seems like that's more the issue OP is describing.
I thought I was good at it until I played in a handbell choir, where you play 4 notes (say, C5-Eb5) and have to play just your notes within the melody, written with all the surrounding notes. (If you know, you know.) You can't do that by feel; you have to count.
But playing ostinato patterns in 4/4 without written music? You can totally fake it. You have to learn the song structure, of course, and count measures or sections (as opposed to beats and their subdivisions). Seems like that's more the issue OP is describing.
Can you get him to just do four or eight bars of "chop", muted, to get started? That's what I see a lot, and it helps.
What doesn't help is the banjo or guitar player who JUST HAS TO play that complex intro, which he doesn't quite have down, and can't quite play at speed, so none of us has even the faintest clue WHEN the song's going to start, or WHAT tempo it's going to need when it does.
As a VERY amateur singer, I generally thump a few bars' worth of two-beat on my bass (either actual notes or muted) at almost every song, just to get ME set in the right tempo.
Life is just funny. I'm reading here about drummers that don't / can't count while this week I've been watching several vids about Carl Palmer (the P in ELP) , one of the greatest technical drummers and a master of crazy time signatures.
We have been working on the chop intros but some of our songs are more complicated and require a melodic intro. We're getting it but I am surprised as, like you said in your post, people understand music differently. He is definitely in this category, which is opposite of the ret of us who can all get it. We have the most success when the fiddle player starts a some with some "taters" to get things going.
How many electric bassists know what a "taters" is?
I can't believe you all left out drummers that want to count in 1 2 3 4 for every song even if it starts on 3, or 4, or any other beat. One is one, not 2, 3, or 4.
The mark of an experienced rhythm section player.
This is one of those critical skills that comes with many gigs under the belt. When one gets it, it seems so intuitive; but, explaining it to a fellow player that doesn't have it seems nearly impossible. One of those things, kind of like trying to teach the spouse a golf swing or fly casting; they won't learn it from you until they choose to listen to someone else. I don't believe I have ever seen this mentioned in a single instructional vid.
For the record, the OP is not about counting in songs. It is about counting throughout songs, which IMO, any experienced player should rarely have to do. It should be ingrained in your subconscious. The only times I count during a song are odd signatures and breaks.
skyline_01
Endorsing artist: Nordstrand Audio, Tsunami Cables
I wouldn't expect anyone to count in their head through the entire song, but I feel like being able to understand how to count out a measure is pretty essential and basic. C'mon.
And, perhaps unrelated, but don't get me started on counting off a song in one tempo and then coming in at a dramatically different tempo.
And, perhaps unrelated, but don't get me started on counting off a song in one tempo and then coming in at a dramatically different tempo.
"meh` he's the drummer he doesn't count"
ya gotta count to a degree to know where the changes are! and how long that goes till the next verse/chorus/bridge/intro/outro
ya gotta count to a degree to know where the changes are! and how long that goes till the next verse/chorus/bridge/intro/outro
True, but we added the other subject as well.
Again there are really two things being talked about, one being counting within measures to work out rhythms - which, of course, once you've got it down you don't need to keep counting - and the other is the counting OF measures to make sure you go to the next place in time. For example, I sense four and eight bar groups without even thinking about it. But give me a modal tune that sits on the first chord for 14 bars and then the second one for 7 bars and the the third one for 9 and the last one for 22, and I don't think you're going to find very many people who can SENSE during long improvised solos when the next change is coming.
Even within measures, in playing big-band charts (standard notation) there are occasionally situations where I actually have to write 1-2-3 AND or something like that over a particular measure to make sure I play the rhythm right. That'd typically be some of those Afro-Cuban charts with really tightly arranged tutti sections. Think that big tutti in "Spain" by Chick Corea (though after playing that one for 45 years now, I've got it internalized) - but it's a complex rhythm with a lot of off-sixteenth-beat notes.
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This. I'm a drummer first for 25 years and if you don't know the song you can't really "wing it" UNLESS YOU'RE PAYING ATTENTION and following the band. Many songs you could probably wing it if you just listen to the progressions/dynamics that are in play, even if you don't know the song. However even if you know the song, if you aren't paying attention I think that's where you get a beat/measure off from the rest of the ensemble. There have been plenty of times where I'm playing a latin song that repeats a vamp 5.5 times, then 7 times and those are the spots where I actually count or create my own little patterns internally to follow. It's one thing to "just feel it" and it's another thing to just zone out. It's good you sat down with him, hopefully he's open to some input about how it affects you and how important/cool it is for bass and drums to lock in & hold it down. I bet (hope) that once he starts to pay more attention, he'll appreciate the drum & bass thing.
Drummers aren't always "musicians" but we can help move them in that direction I like to think!
I only count when I'm learning something. Like complicated syncopated passages. Once it's ingrained, I'm more focused on the ensemble as a whole, dynamics and making sure nobody get lost. Standard 4/4 stuff I don't count.
As for drummers, whether they do or don't being honest, I've never asked one if they did or not. All I care about is if they could play in meter and tastefully.
OK, so the first post was about the tune needing a crash on 4 of the measure just before a change, and drummer can't get it, keeps hitting on the 1 of the next bar. Could be two things happening here: 1) he doesn't really KNOW when the change is so he can't anticipate it by one beat (that's losing the song form) or 2) He knows very well when the change is happening, but he can't reliably place his hit on 4 (that's about losing track of the beats within a single measure).
The way for him to practice this, of course, would be to come up to that hit and say to himself "1-2-3-BAM!" (We'll leave aside motivation for now.) If he's not clear where the change is, then he would need to go "1 - - - 2 - - - 3 - - - 4 - - - 5 - - - 6 - - - 7 - - - 8-2-3-BAM!" to place himself in the right place in the song form AND in the right place in the bar. Other than real exotic rhythmic styles, a few times through with the crutches and any competent drummer (or other musician) won't need to use the crutches to be in the right place at the right time.
Why can't he do this? Well, he's probably never been taught how to practice, for one. Getting yourself in the right place at the right time is something that has to be practiced, and you have to know HOW to practice it. I'd bet there's some oppositional-defiance there, too, some of "well, I don't need to know all that fancy-pants theory stuff", which of course means it's going to be very difficult to bring him along.
I'm betting his problem is he doesn't know how to fish and doesn't want to learn.
I see a lot of the oppositional-defiant stuff with adult players who don't have a tool they need to play something correctly but don't want to acquire the tool, either.
The way for him to practice this, of course, would be to come up to that hit and say to himself "1-2-3-BAM!" (We'll leave aside motivation for now.) If he's not clear where the change is, then he would need to go "1 - - - 2 - - - 3 - - - 4 - - - 5 - - - 6 - - - 7 - - - 8-2-3-BAM!" to place himself in the right place in the song form AND in the right place in the bar. Other than real exotic rhythmic styles, a few times through with the crutches and any competent drummer (or other musician) won't need to use the crutches to be in the right place at the right time.
Why can't he do this? Well, he's probably never been taught how to practice, for one. Getting yourself in the right place at the right time is something that has to be practiced, and you have to know HOW to practice it. I'd bet there's some oppositional-defiance there, too, some of "well, I don't need to know all that fancy-pants theory stuff", which of course means it's going to be very difficult to bring him along.
I'm betting his problem is he doesn't know how to fish and doesn't want to learn.
I see a lot of the oppositional-defiant stuff with adult players who don't have a tool they need to play something correctly but don't want to acquire the tool, either.
That's cool - it's all related. My point was that several people seem to think the OP was *only* talking about the drummer counting off a tune, which made me question whether they even read the OP.
This right here. As I said much earlier, counting is easy and we all learned it in grade school. In order to count effectively through a difficult passage you have to do a few things:
1) You have to listen to the music and figure out where your problematic passage is. Where is the rhythm getting wonky for you? If it's like the 3/4 measure stuck in seemingly at random, you start counting 4s until your 4 suddenly isn't working anymore. There: You've found the weird measure. Listen to it and figure out how many beats it has.
2) You have to count through that passage and figure out how to create a count that will help you fix the problem In the song I posted earlier with the weird 3/4 measures I gave the drummer a running start with a measure of 4/4 before the trouble spot, and then a 1-2-3 / 1 hiccup where the 3/4 measure occurs, with an indication of what the lyrics are where that happens so he can cue into the vocal to get ready for it.
3) you have to be willing to apply that count during play at practice, so that you use the tool you developed effectively, and do that as many times as required for that section to become natural for you.
That's literally all you have to do to fix this kind of problem. But when I ask someone how they're counting something and they just say "I don't count," or some such thing, my next impulse it to say, "well, it's time to start, because you aren't nailing that, and this is how we fix this." But if someone's going to fight with me because they're too lazy to go through that simple process, I can't be bothered with that and I'll suggest we drop that song rather than sit around waiting for a train wreck that's unavoidable.
At the first convenient opportunity I will also take my leave and find more competent players to work with.
In my neck of the woods, we call that Tuesday, or any other day for that matter.
Q: Why do singers make lousy tenants?
A: They always come in too late and when they do they can never find their key.
Ta dum tsss
No, don't call the admin, I will see myself out.
