• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Drummers who don't count?

You are exactly right. Thanks for not only pin-pointing the issue but also giving me a means to provide practice to correct the issue.

I also need to be able to communicate with the drummer what needs to be done and when... and it's that communication issue that brought the counting issue to light. I appreciate the comments from others too that point out eye-contact and body language etc can help out with that, and we do face each other in our rehearsal space, so that's something that I can work on to help it all work out as well.
A lot of space is given to eye contact, but I am not all that keen to rely on it because it is not always possible. Maybe it's because I am also a singer, and often I am facing the audience with my mouth to the microphone and I don't have the luxury of looking behind me while I'm also trying to sing and play the bass to guess at what someone else might be doing.

I will look at the bandleader who I like to have to my right because I can look across at him without moving away from the mic, and I can look at the drummer when songs are ending if I'm not singing all the way to the end. But to suggest strong reliance on those sorts of cues is sort of saying "don't bother to learn how it goes," and I think that does the music a disservice. Even in the bands that are primarily improvisational, there's a certain amount of understanding about what's at least coming next, and if I have cues that I can hear, that's more reliable for me that cues I have to visualize. Not every stage setup lends itself easily to line of sight, either.

But, like many things, I've softened my view on this somewhat over the past five years, because people tend to want to do these things and in some cases nobody's had time to learn the material well enough to do it in any better way. I just wouldn't suggest it as a preferred method or something to choose over actually learning the songs and developing arrangement points, in most cases.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldShark
I would guess very few count throughout an entire song. I feel in groups of four intuitively but I will count through a difficult rhythmic passage as many times as it takes to get it into memory. Then I usually don't need to.

I am annoyed with players who won't count to get in sync when they aren't otherwise nailing it. We all learned to count in grade school and it isn't asking a lot but for some reason it seems to be beyond some folks when music is involved.

Very much may method and mindset.

I definitely have to count when a drummer starts to go sideways or I am quickly in the ditch with them...
 
  • Like
Reactions: LBS-bass
For your specific situation, I'd just yell "1,2,3 Hit" when that moment comes up - during rehearsals of course.


We all operate differently and there's no harm in helping the guy get something straight - once in a while. I'd feel differently if this doesn't stick after a couple of weeks though.

I seriously forget the last time I counted every bar of a song. I tend to feel and only count when timing is difficult.
 
No.. we aren't talking about drummers that don't matter.... in this sense I mean count as in timing.

Let me give y'all a little back story: last band practice our guitarist/lead singer (3 piece grunge/metal band) couldn't make it, so the drummer and I sat down and broke down some parts of a few of our songs that we were having timing issues on. At one point in time we were playing along to one of our recordings and I told him I needed him to crash at the end of the "4" of the chorus, not on the "1" of the guitar solo that follows, and he admitted that he doesn't count when he plays and most of the time he just "wings it". (This explains a lot about why he's often a bar or two 1/4 notes behind us, and why he doesn't always play the same fills).

I count EVERYTHING, all the time.. by this I mean every time I play our songs I see everything in numbers and thought everyone else did too. I have been trying to give the drummer hints when things are changing.. (ie with a small fill). But this conversation got me thinking about how common it is for drummers to not be counting all the time. Playing by feel is one thing, but how can you play percussion withOUT counting? Even if most of what we play is 4/4 you still have to anticipate when the changes are happening.

Am I being too narrow minded? You can play melodies without an understanding of theory.. but I still think understanding intervals is super important. I just always assume people who feel the beat are feeling a count of some kind.

I feel bars of time. I only count in my head when there is a particularly difficult rhythm that i have not yet internalized. I would argue you and your drummer need to get better at feeling out time and developing that sixth sense. Also telling a drummer to crash at the "end of the 4" is not very specific and kind of means your own sense of counting time needs more work. Beats have subdivisions and you should specify where exactly in the beat the hit should be.
 
It is easy for the band leader to ask the drummer to play a minimal beat and not to improvise. When that is correct, you can expand things out. If that can't be accomplished, there are multiple basic problems.

You can bring in an outsider with a metronome to tell you how well everyone is playing together with a minimal drum beat. If the band is sloppy, the drummer can get messed up when hearing others play out of time.
 
Last edited:
any and all requests, even if we didn't know the song, someone requested an AC/DC song. The BL picked one on his tablet and took off. I had never heard it, and I'm playing bass. I had NO clue and I'm pretty sure, since he was trying to read the words AND the chords, the BL made some mistakes on it, too. It was a train wreck. Times like that are when/why I like the band to be well rehearsed.

LOL yeah, blind requests are a horse of an entirely different color - sounds fun though :cool:
 
A good drummer makes the whole band sound better.
A good musician on any instrument makes the band sound better.
There's this old utterly narrow minded notion that the drummer's JOB is to keep time;
Everyone has to keep time. It is an agreement between the players. The drummers is often the most defined and easiest to hear time though.
he is just not paying attention or a bad drummer
If he's regularly not paying attention then he IS a bad drummer.
t give me a modal tune that sits on the first chord for 14 bars and then the second one for 7 bars and the the third one for 9 and the last one for 22, and I don't think you're going to find very many people who can SENSE during long improvised solos when the next change is coming.
Fair enough, but if it's a long improvised solo why would you make it so hard on yourself?
 
Everyone has to keep time. It is an agreement between the players. The drummers is often the most defined and easiest to hear time though.
If the drummer can't keep time, it's everyone's problem because the drummer's job is only to hit things in time, and (s)he's usually very audible. I have played with drummers like this, and it's disruptive when the drummer is not in time. But yes, ideally it's a collective effort. The effort is made much easier when the drummer is competent.
 
If the drummer can't keep time, it's everyone's problem because the drummer's job is only to hit things in time, and (s)he's usually very audible. I have played with drummers like this, and it's disruptive when the drummer is not in time. But yes, ideally it's a collective effort. The effort is made much easier when the drummer is competent.
If anyone can't keep time then it's disruptive.
Everyones job is to make noise in time. Having to hit a pitch as well doesn't change that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Astronaut
For drummers, they need an internal clock which always knows where 1 is.
For sophisticated timings, they may need to count it. This is normal, pretty much everyone does this.

If any drummer can't determine one in Common time, either he has missed some pretty fundamental fundamentals or his technique is poor.
This is pretty much at rule 101, I think.

Therefore, fire that drummer, but the other question is, who let them get that far?
 
Last edited:
meh. That's a craftsman's take. Legitimate, but only from a technician POV.

Musicality can be so much more than technical acumen.

In song, the heart rules. The feel and expression. It's what touches the listeners. Maybe it is counted, maybe not. Doesn't matter. If it moves, it moves.

I'll send your post along to the various orchestras of the world, big bands, college bands, any bands with more than 5 pieces. I'm sure they will be enlightened. :rollno:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: SoonerBill
I talked with our drummer the other day…he stated that we play a song too fast…
I mentioned 3 times, "you count the song off".
After the third time he said, "that was just a guideline".
Ooookkkk…:meh:

He also starts a song with a full measure drum roll. He counts off out loud, then does his roll. 75% of the time someone in the band starts playing right after the count…I've mentioned this many times to stop the count off before the drum intro, It just confuses everyone.
 
Last edited:
I agree. I played Viola until my Junior year of college. Except for a fun piece thrown in for a Christmas concert or such it was all about nailing technical perfection.

And once everyone has the technical perfection, particularly the timing, then it allows a soloist to have some freedom for their musicality. But, everyone doing their own thing?

I remember someone once talked about great artists getting together and just jamming. They called it "chance music" as there was a "chance" it might lead to something worthy of producing. :D
 
And once everyone has the technical perfection, particularly the timing, then it allows a soloist to have some freedom for their musicality. But, everyone doing their own thing?

I remember someone once talked about great artists getting together and just jamming. They called it "chance music" as there was a "chance" it might lead to something worthy of producing. :D
Yeah, well, if someone sits in with those great artists and he's dragging the beat or loses track of the song form, they'll grab him by the scruff of the neck and toss his arse right out of there. You think if McCartney, Charlie Hunter, Branford Marsalis and Ray Benson found themselves jamming for fun and some guy was sitting in on drums that couldn't keep the beat, that they'd put up with it?