Drummers who don't count?

[LBS-bass]

Nope, everyone needs to have it...and then that is what tempo is for.
Did it really need explaining, but yep, those guy who have poor time don't make it.

It doesn't need explaining as it's fundamental to making music, but apparently the fact that in some genres drummers are playing divisions and subdivisions that need to be executed with extreme precision does.

It's forgivable if your lead guitarist takes some liberties with timing now and then, but your drummer, no. No forgiveness there.

Some folks apparently take that to mean that everyone else in the band can be sloppy or incapable of keeping time.

The reality is that if you have a shoes-in-the dryer drummer, nothing else matters because nobody can sync up with that, time-wise. Try it. Another player who might be slightly ahead or behind the beat probably isn't going to be quite so distracting and can be reined in by a steady drummer. It usually doesn't work the other way around.

 

[Astronaut]

AHh! You just cannot be serious!
You're all common sense but then again, "it's forgivable on the guitar... but not on the drummer..".
Just, because... it's not his job, right?
I rest my case.

 

[LBS-bass]

AHh! You just cannot be serious!
You're all common sense but then again, "it's forgivable on the guitar... but not on the drummer..".
Just, because... it's not his job, right?
I rest my case.

Have you not played with players who sometimes are behind or ahead of the beat? Or is every player you work with metronomic and quantized?

There's a whole realm of artistic expression in rubato playing but everyone has to be tight enough that they aren't disrupting the groove as a whole.

I can see this is not easy to explain to some folks here who jump to the conclusion that I'm excusing sloppiness, which is not the case. We are talking about subtleties of expression, and that's not easy to convey in the written word. Or perhaps this is a willful pretense of misunderstanding, for contrarian purposes, because that's your idea of fun.

In either case it's a pointless exercise, so I'll stop bothering to try.

'Cause, you know, as I said... I've never been in a good band before.

<flutters eyelashes>

 

[BassGuyFL]

Have you not played with players who sometimes are behind or ahead of the beat? Or is every player you work with metronomic and quantized?

There's a whole realm of artistic expression in rubato playing but everyone has to be tight enough that they aren't disrupting the groove as a whole.

I can see this is not easy to explain to some folks here who jump to the conclusion that I'm excusing sloppiness, which is not the case. We are talking about subtleties of expression, and that's not easy to convey in the written word. Or perhaps this is a willful pretense of misunderstanding, for contrarian purposes, because that's your idea of fun.

In either case it's a pointless exercise, so I'll stop bothering to try.

'Cause, you know, as I said... I've never been in a good band before.

<flutters eyelashes>

I've learned that people that don't have to keep the time, hardly do. I've seen people never tap their foot and never groove along. For example I hardly have any of our sax player in my mix. Not that I don't wanna hear him, but because his phrasing floats along and sometimes hes not right on the beat. That's a big distraction when I HAVE to be right on the beat. Same for our second keys player. As long as I have me, drums and piano I'm good

 

[LBS-bass]

I've learned that people that don't have to keep the time, hardly do. I've seen people never tap their foot and never groove along. For example I hardly have any of our sax player in my mix. Not that I don't wanna hear him, but because his phrasing floats along and sometimes hes not right on the beat. That's a big distraction when I HAVE to be right on the beat. Same for our second keys player. As long as I have me, drums and piano I'm good

It sucks when people just aren't there with the groove

 

[Pocket Dave]

I've learned that people that don't have to keep the time, hardly do. I've seen people never tap their foot and never groove along. For example I hardly have any of our sax player in my mix. Not that I don't wanna hear him, but because his phrasing floats along and sometimes hes not right on the beat. That's a big distraction when I HAVE to be right on the beat. Same for our second keys player. As long as I have me, drums and piano I'm good

Guitarists who regularly do this with their solos rarely lock in on their rhythms either, and are usually dropping their accents and emphasis on the wrong beats.

And I never noticed this near as much when I was also on guitar, but man does it come into focus when I play bass.

I guess it's true that we rarely see things as they are; We see them as we are.

 

[basseux]

The one in my previous band couldn't count, that added to the reason I quited.

I told him he should learn to read music.
Goal is not to sight read gigs, just to make a visualisation effort, and be conscious about it, and not wing it.

 

[pepj]

I've learned that people that don't have to keep the time, hardly do. I've seen people never tap their foot and never groove along. For example I hardly have any of our sax player in my mix. Not that I don't wanna hear him, but because his phrasing floats along and sometimes hes not right on the beat. That's a big distraction when I HAVE to be right on the beat. Same for our second keys player. As long as I have me, drums and piano I'm good

But its unlikey the band is.
Good time and groove is a critical requirement.

People without good time basically can't play, imv.

You'll hear them on Jam nights and you spend all your energy trying to keep them on track.

I certainly wouldn't be in a band with these guys.

 

[Bassngtr]

Here's a counting story and a drummer story.
Band I used to be in yearly played a fun outdoor gig. It was usually hot, but it was along the river so always a nice breeze esp. after the sun went down. This one day it was close to 100 degrees, and not as much wind. We were playing 'American Girl' which had always been a struggle*. I noticed the drummer started falling off the beat - not that unusual for this song sadly. Without turning around I starting stomping my foot in time, exaggerating the motion so he'd see it. No improvement. Frustrated I turned around to catch his eye and set him straight, and he was well into the process of collapsing from heat exhaustion!! Ambulance came and took him to the hospital. I felt pretty lousy about that. Really good guy, pretty good drummer. A high school kid in the crowd finished the gig with us on drums.

* With 1 exception every band I've been in has tried and failed to be able to play American Girl well. I don't get why...it's not hard and everyone's heard it a million times. I love to play it and could do it in my sleep. One of my favorites. Went to see a band the other night and they mucked it up a bit too.

 

[pepj]

Takes a reasonably skilled drummer and a bit of stamina.

100 degrees is a fair excuse in itself though.

 

[Astronaut]

Have you not played with players who sometimes are behind or ahead of the beat? Or is every player you work with metronomic and quantized?

There's a whole realm of artistic expression in rubato playing but everyone has to be tight enough that they aren't disrupting the groove as a whole.

I can see this is not easy to explain to some folks here who jump to the conclusion that I'm excusing sloppiness, which is not the case. We are talking about subtleties of expression, and that's not easy to convey in the written word. Or perhaps this is a willful pretense of misunderstanding, for contrarian purposes, because that's your idea of fun.

In either case it's a pointless exercise, so I'll stop bothering to try.

'Cause, you know, as I said... I've never been in a good band before.

<flutters eyelashes>

Excuse me if I don't know personally the stated bands you were in. As much as you don't have to know the bands I am/were in. So that argument for me means....

I'm not saying your advocating for sloppiness, heck I feel you've been saying the exact opposite. But what do I know.
One thing I know; I don't know who the OP is, but from his questioning I can assume he is not very secure about this timing/counting matter. Oddly enough, almost all the comments in here assume the drummer is the culprit.
Couldn't tell you how many times a guitarist brought in a new riff and didn't even know what time signature he had just "written" it, even less did he know where the 1 was.
But again, what do I know, i've never been in a good band.

 

[crguti]

my left leg is counting, so I just follow my leg.

 

[ToddB1963]

A few random thoughts:

Keeping good time as a bass player is what it's all about and to that end I have no issues playing without a drummer - but of course it still goes without saying that to play with a great drummer is one of the joys of playing bass. Unfortunately, where I live, drummers in general - let alone competent drummers - are very few and far between these days.

I will say this though ( as a general observation ). After 40 years of playing, I can count on one hand the number of drummers I've played with who had really good time, and ALL of them have been rock guys. One in particular was so good that when he started playing I felt like I was levitating 3 feet off the floor. Grooving with him was effortless - like walking on air, or driving a powerboat at full speed across a glassy ocean, steering with your index finger. He led the band like an absolute boss (RIP Ashley).

To balance the discussion I should say that I've played with a few rock guys to whom even the most basic rudiments/concepts seemed unattainable.

Alas, I'd say only 30% of the 'jazz guys' I've played with have had great time. The other 70% - were just ok. Several in particular 'swung' like the proverbial rusty gate. Why? because they just try and finesse too much. Ever traded fours with a drummer who always comes back in one beat too late? It's frustrating ( to say the least ). And I'm not talking about slouches here. Some of these guys were conservatory trained...

Playing with a good one though...look out !

 

[pepj]

Good time is not negotiable, imv. Add a good groove just means those guys go to the top of the list you call.

Bad time keeping drummers exist but they dont play with good bands here.

 

[badinage]

To me an experience with a good drummer involves having an intuition for what the other one is about to do. Eye-contact is great, especially for upcoming stops, usually a glance that means "just-about-here?", but usually it's mostly auditory. It's a dance, and it does breathe.

The most frustrating thing for me: I know a very good jazz drummer who stays in excellent time, but locked in his own little world, knowing what he's going to do a measure or two out regardless of the rest of the band is doing or the auditory cues coming back from the band. It's kinda groove-killing but OK I can deal with it. What drives me nuts is that every drum-hot-lick sequence/flourish he does comes with a late-return with maybe 200ms instantly added to the pulse of the song. I don't want to sound like a complainer, so I haven't asked if anyone else in the band notices it. Maybe I'm just nuts.

 

[LBS-bass]

The most frustrating thing for me: I know a very good jazz drummer who stays in excellent time, but locked in his own little world, playing in locked time, knowing what he's going to do a measure or two out regardless of the rest of the band is doing or the auditory cues coming back from the band. It's kinda groove-killing but OK I can deal with it. What drives me nuts is that every drum-hot-lick sequence/flourish he does comes with a late-return with maybe 200ms instantly added to the pulse of the song. I don't want to sound like a complainer, so I haven't asked if anyone else in the band notices it. Maybe I'm just nuts.

It's probably not you. I played briefly with a drummer whose kick was always just a little late. It was maddening, and the kind of thing that makes me question if it's me or him, but then I realized I've played with excellent drummers and not had that problem, so probably it isn't me.

Currently I play with two different drummers in different blues bands. The one drummer is pretty much what you described; locked in his world and not paying attention, but playing the songs pretty well. It's just impossible to have any fun with him or do any improvising.

The other guy is the exact opposite; he's listening all the time, working off what everyone else is doing, which is much more in line with my own concept of "playing" music. Both of these guys have decent chops, but the second guy is a lot more fun.

 

[Gluvhand]

Life is just funny. I'm reading here about drummers that don't / can't count while this week I've been watching several vids about Carl Palmer (the P in ELP) , one of the greatest technical drummers and a master of crazy time signatures.

Not having read the rest of the thread I apologize if someone else addressed this but the knock on Palmer was his seeming inability to keep steady time. I personally haven't heard it.

 

[J Wilson]

An insider's ELP tip: Often Keith Emerson would speed up to goose his two bandmates . . . . just because he could.

Anyone who thinks Carl Palmer can't keep steady time, needs to try thinking.

 

[Pocket Dave]

A few random thoughts:

Keeping good time as a bass player is what it's all about and to that end I have no issues playing without a drummer - but of course it still goes without saying that to play with a great drummer is one of the joys of playing bass. Unfortunately, where I live, drummers in general - let alone competent drummers - are very few and far between these days.

I will say this though ( as a general observation ). After 40 years of playing, I can count on one hand the number of drummers I've played with who had really good time, and ALL of them have been rock guys. One in particular was so good that when he started playing I felt like I was levitating 3 feet off the floor. Grooving with him was effortless - like walking on air, or driving a powerboat at full speed across a glassy ocean, steering with your index finger. He led the band like an absolute boss (RIP Ashley).

To balance the discussion I should say that I've played with a few rock guys to whom even the most basic rudiments/concepts seemed unattainable.

Alas, I'd say only 30% of the 'jazz guys' I've played with have had great time. The other 70% - were just ok. Several in particular 'swung' like the proverbial rusty gate. Why? because they just try and finesse too much. Ever traded fours with a drummer who always comes back in one beat too late? It's frustrating ( to say the least ). And I'm not talking about slouches here. Some of these guys were conservatory trained...

Playing with a good one though...look out !

It really takes all kinds here in North Texas. In the 80's, great drummers were hard to come by. These days, it's much easier. Last week, I had gigs on bass with 4 different drummers, all in pickup bands, and all were extremely tight, with big ears.

OTOH, I went to a jam last night - A Sunday night thing for the past almost-20 years at a local restaurant - a meet up and 'union hall' of sorts where we trade pickup and sub gigs.

It was a slow night with not a lot of jammers. I saw where a particular drummer was in the audience whose only opportunity to play with others was probably for a few songs at the jam each week. He could swing ok, but lacked snap, and sometimes had trouble landing exactly back on one.

The BL asked me after the host band's first set if I brought a guitar or bass; When I told him bass, he said, "that's too bad, we don't have any guitar players tonight.", and asked if I would play his guitar and sing a short set with the lesser experienced drummer. I told him I would if I could then play a set on bass with a better drummer, thinking that would be the house band guy.

So after finishing my set with the first drummer on guitar, I grabbed my bass as the BL came back up and strapped on his guitar. He brought up another drummer who was visiting from, you'll love this, your country. Not sure exactly where, but from the accent, he sounded like he might be from WA. I'd guess Perth, but maybe not.

He was outstanding in every sense. Tight, dynamic, great sense of pocket, served the song and could break it down when needed. Pure pleasure to play with, and definitely made it worth the trade off of playing earlier with the less experienced guy (and doing my trained-monkey-guitar-and-vocals thing).

BTW, IME, it's much easier to tolerate a less-than-time-sensitive drummer on guitar than bass.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

Sounds like he does not now which measure he's in, and he's basically playing along with you keeping the time like a metronome. Big red flag there..