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There is very little anybody can say about anything that another person can’t take issue with - or be offended by - if they posses sufficient creativity and work at it long enough. At least based on my own experience.
Most times these folks don’t even have the decency to build a case for their position or interpretation. They just assert it as already established when it really isn’t anything more than their own idiosyncratic interpretation wedded to some private agenda. And that often has no real bearing on what they're objecting to.
“So it goes.” as the Trafalmadorian philosophers so neatly put it.
An important qualifier that. To you.
Had you included that in your original bit of scolding you’d have saved yourself some heat.
I don’t think many here would argue with you about the reality of gender bias and the harm it does. But I think in the context of this particular thread most who read your post thought it was unjustified and maybe just a little over the top.
So it goes.
Still, no real harm done. People here had to consider the issue you raised and analyze the original post to see if your interpretation applied. And that made it necessary for them to look inside themselves and see where they stood on the issue in order to reply to your comment. So it made people think. And that’s never a bad thing.
Onward!
The most profitable discussion you can possibly have is the one that makes you the most uncomfortable.
Well stated. I’m not sure that that qualifier would’ve stopped the defensiveAn important qualifier that. To you.
Had you included that in your original bit of scolding you’d have saved yourself some heat.
I don’t think many here would argue with you about the reality of gender bias and the harm it does. But I think in the context of this particular thread most who read your post thought it was unjustified and maybe just a little over the top.
So it goes.
Still, no real harm done. People here had to consider the issue you raised and analyze the original post to see if your interpretation applied. And that made it necessary for them to look inside themselves and see where they stood on the issue in order to reply to your comment. So it made people think. And that’s never a bad thing.
Onward!
We need more threads featuring a bunch of clueless guys (myself included) talking about what women do or don't find offensive or like or dislike. Really. </sarcasm>
If you ever aren't sure if something is racist or sexist, just flip the binary elements around.
"Girl, you just lost the gig"
[Guys Shredding in videos]
Now try filling in other monikers based on class, race, religion etc on your own and see how it goes.
I mean, I know these threads are meant to be positive for women and girls. But really this method of normalization through validation examples is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I consider it a type of false PC trolling. I've never cared about the gender of a player unless it was shoved in my face like a lecture.
"Girl, you just lost the gig"
[Guys Shredding in videos]
Now try filling in other monikers based on class, race, religion etc on your own and see how it goes.
I mean, I know these threads are meant to be positive for women and girls. But really this method of normalization through validation examples is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I consider it a type of false PC trolling. I've never cared about the gender of a player unless it was shoved in my face like a lecture.
Four decades of it, and I just tune it all out. I became one of the guys when they stopped peeking while I changed in the back of a van. The ONLY one that still hurts is 'Pretty good for a girl'. Outside musical discussions I have a lot to say about feminism, in a musical setting it's easier just to go with the flow. Complacency...no...just an interest in keeping harmony among the boys club that will always be live music.
Well…nobody likes to be have an intent ascribed to them that wasn’t their intent.
Old advice from The WeLL, the original pre-Internet online discussion forum:
You own your own words.
Try not to offend.
Try not to be too easily offended.
Something all of us here probably need to remind ourselves from time to time. Myself included. Try not to offend.
Try not to be too easily offended.
I'd like to add that apart from playing live in front of a huge audience, Jeff Beck just stepped aside for that solo while Vinnie Colaiuta sits on the drums. I think that I, as one who considers himself more of a live player than a bedroom artist, would be more likely to sh*t my pants there and then than to deliver only half of what Tal did.
Apart from that, it has been said multiple times that once it's on the record, no one can hear the gender of the player(s).
Carol Kaye is the best example for that.
BUT(!!!):
Being out-chopped is generally not a too pleasant experience.
Being out-chopped by a girl is no exception, maybe it's even worse for some men.
Being out-chopped by a beautiful girl just adds insult to injury for these men.
Just to be clear: I am not the person thinking that this is the most sexist post ever, and neither am I insinuating any bad intentions in the OP. It frankly also takes a little more to offend me. To begin with, "being offended" is not a winning point in any argument and using the "-isms" as killer arguments is irritating and lame.
Still, it does not seem to take too much work or creativity to detect sexism in the OP, at least judging by the generally accepted definition of sexism.
A plausible way to read the post would be:
A dude (we must assume a typical bass player = male) lost his (-> entitlement) gig to a female (apparently unusual because it seems worth mentioning)
Quote from Merriam-Webster:
Sexism
1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
The second definition seems to apply here, doesn't it?
I have noticed your posts on this forum many times and always got the impression that you are a level-headed, intelligent and thoughtful guy. Not sarcasm here... You will understand that there is some logic to this reasoning, whether you agree or not is of course up to you.
Good. Enough now already!
Let's play some bass
I did say "male or female." I take being out-chopped for granted. I take solace in being paid to play, even though I have never been, am not now, and never will be on the level of Tal, or the great Ms. Kaye.
I wouldn’t have bothered responding at all if I didn’t share a similar respect for your posts. To your point there’s differing interpretations resulting from our own personalities, life experience, and feelings on the issue. Suffice to say gender bias is a real issue and needs to be addressed even if we disagree somewhat in where it’s found or who may be doing it. As long as we’re aware of it there’s hope a time will come when our society will get beyond it.
And yes…all this discussion is becoming an excuse not to practice more. So let’s stop gabbing and go make some low noises.
I haven't seen any videos in this thread of women playing "gigs" I would have been interested in enough to have "lost" them, so I guess I'm safe.
RE: especially : discrimination against women
I find it somewhat ironic that Webster's definition of sexism is sexist, in and of itself.
I favor the Tal cut out of those 3, because it's the only one where the player is out in the world playing with other humans. Live bullets.
I have limited appreciation for "play along with the recording in the basement" YouTube videos; those are the equivalent of hitting a punching bag in my view. It's good exercise but the bag doesn't punch back, so it's not really boxing.
All 3 great players, though.
- Oct 22, 2015
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DiabolusInMusic
Functionless Art is Merely Tolerated Vandalism
It is kind of ironic that if you posted a thread called "bass babes" it wouldn't be acceptable yet it is encouraged to post the "singer babes" you back and the "chicks at shows".
