So I have a dumb recording question here -- I know very little about such things. Past weekend I went to friend's house who recorded (using Logic Pro X) me on my J-bass, drummer on a Roland electronic drum kit and guitarist playing a couple of different electric guitars. One issues was, it was somewhat difficult to get the level of my bass loud enough in everyone's headphones without running the bass through some kind of preamp. But, the sound of the recorded bass was way, way better when the bass was direct into the mixer with no preamp (so I insisted on the direct setup). It might be that we just had crappy preamps and with better ones the recorded bass would sound fine, but I was curious how people generally address issues like this? I really liked the way the j-bass sounded in the recording direct, but it sure would have been nice to be able to hear what I played better while playing with the others. Like I said, it was a dumb question! Thanks for any thoughts!
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dumb recording question
- Thread starter tensegrity
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I am still learning all of this as well, but I found I needed to add an Amp and Cab in the DAW. If I didn't, it was too low.
The current setup I have is my bass to an ABY pedal. One into the interface and the other through my own effects chain into my amp.
In the DAW I've been playing around using the Ignite Bass amp VST (SHB-1) Invalid Link Removed
Then I send that to the Mercurrial cab (I'm using the 2.1)
Invalid Link Removed
I can't get any screenshots at the moment as I am at work, but will try to later if needed.
The current setup I have is my bass to an ABY pedal. One into the interface and the other through my own effects chain into my amp.
In the DAW I've been playing around using the Ignite Bass amp VST (SHB-1) Invalid Link Removed
Then I send that to the Mercurrial cab (I'm using the 2.1)
Invalid Link Removed
I can't get any screenshots at the moment as I am at work, but will try to later if needed.
Everybody wants to hear themselves more than just a general mix. It's pretty common now to have separate monitor mixes for studio and live use. Only the recording or live engineer hear's the whole mix.
Good headphones or IEMs that block out other sounds you don't want are important. You can hear just the monitor mix better.
Good headphones or IEMs that block out other sounds you don't want are important. You can hear just the monitor mix better.
So I guess the question is then, what kind of gear is needed to put a different mix into different headphones? That seems like a great solution, I'm just not sure what's needed to actually do it.
Was the bass really running into a mixer, or was it running into an audio interface? Did the bass have its own track in Logic?
Run the bass track to an aux track setup. Make an auxi track run the output to stereo, run the input to the send you assign on the bass track such as bus 1 and 2. Put a compressor on the insert on the aux dial in the compressor to taste, blend in the level of busses on the bass track and blend to taste. Congrats you just used parallel compression. If you don't have the ability to create a cue mix doing this while tracking will help immensely with hearing you or any other instrument. The attack and release times are key here. Dial in at least a 3 to 1 ratio or better and a threshold that goes down to where the input level of the bass Is peaking at. You can dial down the threshold to get more gain reduction and increase the output gain. You can turn the aux up or the bus level on the send on the bass track blend to taste here as well. it will give you another level of control for dynamics and general level
To get a cue mix one would need adda conversion or multiple ins and outs run the stereo outputs to a headphone amp with multiple channels that are not on the same summing output or multiple headphone amps. You would then setup busses on all the tracks and send that to an input on an aux track (there would be stereo buss groups for each talent so buss 3 and 4 go to drummer and buss 5 and 6 go to you then those are routed to their aux tracks and then to their hardware stereo output to cue amp) the output of the aux track would go to the output associated with the headphone amp. This way you can dial in panning and levels for each person individual to them without messing with the rough mix the engineer is doing to the overall track. They can keep a mix for the demo and mixes for the talent. you dial the levels of the instruments in with the busses. This is what's known as sub mixes for cues. There are other iterations of this depending on what yiu are using such as a digital console with auxiliary outputs that run to seperates cue amps or the method I've described here. Having a good cue mix is essential to capturing a good performance really it is beginner audio engineer stuff. Ideally if all are playing at once having seperates isolation booths really helps with quality immensely and acoustical room treatment, proper gear, proper electric to reduce interference and grounding issues, soundproofing to reduce or eliminate outside influence but I digress. Great recordings have been made with very little just keep making music have fun and try not to dive too deep cause these subjects can be multiple lifetimes of different areas of study (engineering theory, interconnect practices, electrical, physics, digital audio theory, mic placement, guerilla recording techniques involving manipulating physics to your advantage, critical listening skills and the list goes on and on)
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If whoever recording you doesn't have the capability to set up multiple cue mixes so you hear enough of yourself, it's handy to have something like this:
Rolls Corporation - Real Sound - Products PM351 Personal Monitor System
ART Pro Audio
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If I remember correctly, there used to be someone out of Nashville who made a high-end "more me" box with Jensen transformers, but I just did a cursory search and couldn't find any info on that.
When only one cue mix is available and it is determined by the geetard with the massive ego I have come up with a very elegant solution. I bought a Mackie Mix 8 mixer and run my direct bass signal into one channel, my amp sound into another and the stereo geetard mix (REALLY loud guitar, loud vocals, loud drums, some keys and the tiniest bit of bass) into two channels. Then I can determine my own level and mix and control my overall volume plus I can EQ things to a certain extent. Problem solved!
It's really tempting to increase the gain on the sound interface when the volume isn't loud enough. It's a very hard question to answer not knowing exactly what gear you are using, interface etc...
I use an Apollo which means I can monitor latency free and create headphone mixes.
Here's the step by step of what works really well for me:
FANCY WAY
1) I run my bass into my MXR bass preamp pedal
3) My input levels are now ideal. Everything that happens now will be in the floating point digital domain. My DI channel is set so I can just forget about that. I know that whatever I tamper with now with my live monitor sound, I have a clean d.i. take as a backup. Now for my live sound:
EASIER WAY
1) Go straight into the HiZ on your interface. Set the levels as described in the previous method. Keep lots of headroom.
2) Your D.I. is now totally good to go. For monitoring:
A cheap solution is a Presonus hp4 or something like that. HD280's are good if you want isolation.
Good luck, play music!
I use an Apollo which means I can monitor latency free and create headphone mixes.
Here's the step by step of what works really well for me:
FANCY WAY
1) I run my bass into my MXR bass preamp pedal
- output goes into my HiZ input on the interface.
- the pedal direct out goes into a second preamp on my interface via XLR (this is the straight unaffected DI)
The levels here are really important. You basically need your bass to peak between -21db and -15db. I usually aim around -18db.
Set both of your preamps on your sound interface to this input level. This is the ideal input for 24bit recording. If you are recording 16bits you can go a little hotter to lower the noise floor.
It's really tempting at this point to increase the gain on the interface because it's hard to monitor at these levels...it sounds wait too quiet compared to mastered music or even working mixes. If you increase the gain on the preamp to get the volume loud enough to monitor you will clip your peaks...so DO NOT DO THAT
Set both of your preamps on your sound interface to this input level. This is the ideal input for 24bit recording. If you are recording 16bits you can go a little hotter to lower the noise floor.
It's really tempting at this point to increase the gain on the interface because it's hard to monitor at these levels...it sounds wait too quiet compared to mastered music or even working mixes. If you increase the gain on the preamp to get the volume loud enough to monitor you will clip your peaks...so DO NOT DO THAT
3) My input levels are now ideal. Everything that happens now will be in the floating point digital domain. My DI channel is set so I can just forget about that. I know that whatever I tamper with now with my live monitor sound, I have a clean d.i. take as a backup. Now for my live sound:
I can use my MXR preamp to tweak the sound to something I like. Maybe boost the bass a little to get more power. Adjust my mids etc... a little goes a long way. Whatever helps me monitor my sound so it's comfortable for me to play.
The next step for my live sound is compression. I go into an LA-2a with about 2-3db's of peak reduction to add a little evenness and fatness. I adjust the gain coming out here so it's around -9db, which is a totally adequate level for monitoring. My live sound is now getting a really good level and I can hear it loud in my headphones or monitors!
The last and final step is a limiter. I add an 1176 set to 20-1 with the fastest attack and release I can use without causing distortion. Make sure your output coming out of that is still around -9db for proper gain staging. You want to set the gain reduction on the compressor so the needle doesn't move at all when you play but if you pop or slap a string pretty hard...the need wiggles and the compressor catches that crazy transient. Basically the compressor doesn't do anything unless you get a loud peak then it tames it.
And that's about it...I sing better in the shower, so having a good monitoring sound makes a huge difference in my performance... When I record vocals, I always give the performer a little reverb in their headphone mix...same concept here.The next step for my live sound is compression. I go into an LA-2a with about 2-3db's of peak reduction to add a little evenness and fatness. I adjust the gain coming out here so it's around -9db, which is a totally adequate level for monitoring. My live sound is now getting a really good level and I can hear it loud in my headphones or monitors!
The last and final step is a limiter. I add an 1176 set to 20-1 with the fastest attack and release I can use without causing distortion. Make sure your output coming out of that is still around -9db for proper gain staging. You want to set the gain reduction on the compressor so the needle doesn't move at all when you play but if you pop or slap a string pretty hard...the need wiggles and the compressor catches that crazy transient. Basically the compressor doesn't do anything unless you get a loud peak then it tames it.
EASIER WAY
1) Go straight into the HiZ on your interface. Set the levels as described in the previous method. Keep lots of headroom.
2) Your D.I. is now totally good to go. For monitoring:
Use something like Cerberus Bass amp, or whatever standalone, low latency plug you have. That's your monitor, and it will be loud coming out of that.
Your buddy will record the clean D.I. you like to the daw and your set.
As far as setting up headphone mixes and gear. Seems like people have already tipped in with suggestions.Your buddy will record the clean D.I. you like to the daw and your set.
A cheap solution is a Presonus hp4 or something like that. HD280's are good if you want isolation.
Good luck, play music!
I'm still trying to figure out if this is about cue mix or the actual levels being recorded. I know it was hard to hear, but was it hard to hear at -6DBu or hard to hear at -24DBu? At some point the noise floor becomes an issue.
+1, just what I was going to suggest. This way they can set you where they want you in the mix and you can hear yourself better without stepping on toes. I've been meaning to get one of these for a while, but haven't needed one.
So I picked up a Scarlett 2i2 and got it working with my j-bass and into Ardour (with Jack silliness that seems to be working). Setting Ardour for hardware monitoring and the Direct Monitor switch on the 2i2 to "OFF" appears to let me hear what the bass and whatever else is going on in Ardour. My new question is: if I had the 2i4 (as opposed to the 2i2) which has a knob to blend direct and non-direct inputs for monitoring, would that allow me to in effect hear more of my bass in my monitoring mix similar to the effect of one of the personal monitor boxes that were suggested in this thread above? If so, then I think I should return the 2i2 and pay a little more for the 2i4. Thanks for thoughts!
DigitalMan,
the bass, along with a Roland electronic drum kit, 2 electric guitars and a vocal mike were run into some kind of console (not sure what make/model), which was then connected to Logic Pro X. Bass, guitar1, guitar2, vocal and drums each had separate tracks in Logic (not sure how many tracks there were for drums using the Roland kit; in the past with acoustic drums we used what seemed to me to be a fantastically large number of mikes each which went to a unique track in Logic). A single mix then went -- not sure if it went from Logic or from the console -- into a headphone amp, into which everyone plugged their headphones. The issue seemed to be that it was difficult for me to hear my bass in my headphones as strongly as I'd have liked, without cranking up overall headphone volume. The person doing the recording (who owns all the gear) tried to get me to use a couple of crappy preamps before going into the console, which made the bass sound like crap so I protested that approach (although it did make the bass louder).
the bass, along with a Roland electronic drum kit, 2 electric guitars and a vocal mike were run into some kind of console (not sure what make/model), which was then connected to Logic Pro X. Bass, guitar1, guitar2, vocal and drums each had separate tracks in Logic (not sure how many tracks there were for drums using the Roland kit; in the past with acoustic drums we used what seemed to me to be a fantastically large number of mikes each which went to a unique track in Logic). A single mix then went -- not sure if it went from Logic or from the console -- into a headphone amp, into which everyone plugged their headphones. The issue seemed to be that it was difficult for me to hear my bass in my headphones as strongly as I'd have liked, without cranking up overall headphone volume. The person doing the recording (who owns all the gear) tried to get me to use a couple of crappy preamps before going into the console, which made the bass sound like crap so I protested that approach (although it did make the bass louder).
I use to have a Scarlett interface. Setting Direct Monitor to "off" is most likely the wrong thing to do as you will now be monitoring via your DAW which would introduce a pretty healthy amount of latency depending on the sample size and buffer settings. The whole point of that switch is that you can monitor without the latency pre DAW and straight to the headphones.
One thing specific about the 2i2 is that the headphone amp in the interface has a pretty weak output. I had to use an external headphone amp with that interface, especially with my 250ohms headphones. Volume was way too low.
So I think some of the feedback you got is still valid. Set you input levels properly in your DAW. And use either "direct monitor" to monitor your sound or run the DI through some kind of AMP sim to make the tone more "inspiring".
If you're biggest concern is how loud the monitoring is through the headphones. Consider headphones with good isolation and low impedance such as the Sennheiser HD 280 pro. Nothing you can do about the headphone output gain short of using a different interface or using an external headphone amp such as the HP4.
