Double Bass Ear training / App question

[jfh2424]

Hello! I hope this is the right place for this...if not, please move the thread!

I have decided to tackle my biggest issue…ear training. I can now determine major and minor intervals and chords, up. I’m having some issues with descending intervals, but I can see where I will eventually nail this.

I am having issues differentiating diminished and augmented chords. On Chet (the ear training app that I use) there is no way to get it to give me diminished and augmented chords in one key. It keeps giving chords in all kinds of keys, including a lot of flats and sharps that I have never heard. I find that this throws me off. I would like to have an app that give me these chords to identify in one key or that I can select which keys it will give me.

Do you guys know of an app like that?

Thanks so much!

John

 

[brianrost]

I have no recommendation for an app, but diminished and augmented chords constantly trip me up with every ear training method I’ve ever used

 

[Jmilitsc]

I am finding that the iRealPro app with chord charts is one of the more effective ways for me to practice in my ear training.

Either find tunes that have these chords, or create your own exercises (or do both options) in the key(s) of your choice. In practical terms, how many tunes are there that have both of these chords in a progression? Probably not many, and I’m no expert here, but hearing a diminished chord in an actual tune’s progression in context makes it easier to recognize, than on its own in isolation. And toggling back and forth between diminished and augmented i don’t think happens too often, so while it’s hard to do in an app, it’s thankfully not as hard to hear in real music.

Anyway, set up your iReal chart and play the thing a zillion times and sing along. Using solfège, I start w/ roots, then triad arpeggios, then 7ths, then extensions, etc. as i get more comfortable. Again, to be clear, I’m no expert at this and my ear needs constant work, so my post here is based on what’s become a helpful practice tool for me. Hope it can help you too.

I’ve been working on Danny Ziemann’s ear training classes recently - find whatever you can on YouTube, etc. from him, he’s an excellent teacher, highly recommend.

 

[bass player 53]

To the OP- I strongly recommend getting an inexpensive 3 or 4 octave electronic keyboard, or inexpensive
nylon string guitar. There are many basic keyboard and/or guitar books that
show the basic shapes and sounds of the diminished and augmented chords,
or YouTube tutorials.

In the hit Hall and Oates song ‘Every Time You Go Away’, can you hear the
diminished chord? (lyric is ‘Everything
going on and on’).

In the Stevie Wonder song ‘For Once In my Life’, in the studio version in the key of F, the second chord is F augmented.
The 5th note of the F major chord is raised one half step to C#.





Hope this helps.

 

[SteveCS]

diminished and augmented chords in one key.

The thing with augmented chords is they are, at least as far as the major keys are concerned, chromatic. That is they don't appear as a result of harmonising the major scale. To find them in natural occurence you have to go to the minor key.

Regarding diminished chords, in the major key there is only one, and that is the vii°. What makes it even more difficult is that once you start stacking minor 3rds beyond 4 notes, the resultant chords could actually belong to pretty much any key - they are all inversions of each other and have multiple points of resolution, I.e. multiple dominant tendancies, thanks to the myriad tritones. So they only truly reveal their purpose in context.

Consider the diminished chord B° and it's extensions:
B, D, F, Ab, Cb. Cb is enharmonic B so we are back to the 'root' and there are no further extensions.

Now start the same sequence on D: D, F, Ab, Cb, Ebb. Ebb is enharmonic D, so again we are back at the start. Essentially they all sound the same and are all inversions of each other.
Now consider those diminished chords as vii°. You can easily see that those 4 notes could easily function as vii° in any of the keys C, Eb, Gb or A (Ab = G# = vii of A).
My point is it is little wonder the ear struggles to interpret diminished chords without context.

 

[Stuart.C]

no way to get it to give me diminished and augmented chords in one key. It keeps giving chords in all kinds of keys, including a lot of flats and sharps that I have never heard

I am not sure the question makes sense, there is only 1 diminished chord per key, and 1 augmented per harmonic/ melodic minor.
if you make other scale degrees diminished chords you are kinda changing / blurring the key?

I think the point is to be able to identify "diminished-ness" as a quality.

I like:
teoria - Exercises
Lots of different chord exercises, but yeah also can't force it to stay in one key for the chords

 

[Bruce Calin]

My long-suffering(with me) piano teacher many years ago described the diminished chord as " the sound of impending disaster" and the sound of augmented as "rising expectation". I've actually found these useful.

 

[yngwiewho1]

So, there’s an app that should be coming out soon that you should keep an eye out for. It’s just called “chord app.” It’s being made by the same people who make Sonofield ear trainer, which I started using recently and I LOVE. The best thing about it, other than the app itself, is the only “paid tier” they have is a one-time $17.99 fee, which is totally optional (you do unlock a few more exercises per level, and have access to any future features). You should check out Sonofield to see if you like the layout, and maybe chord app will be right for you.

 

[AGCurry]

I think the point is to be able to identify "diminished-ness" as a quality.

Yes, this.

 

[Don Kasper]

I strongly recommend getting an inexpensive 3 or 4 octave electronic keyboard,

This^^^ - to Infinity, and Beyond.
enuf already with the "APPS...."
Remember - "APP" rhymes with "CRAPP".
Sheesh,
IMFO, of course.

 

[Jmilitsc]

This^^^ - to Infinity, and Beyond.
enuf already with the "APPS...."
Remember - "APP" rhymes with "CRAPP".
Sheesh,
IMFO, of course.

yes! agreed, but - the apps are good for practicing in the car while driving. difficult to drive and play keyboard

 

[Don Kasper]

the apps are good for practicing in the car while driving

Maybe the current trend of "maxxing and multitasking" is not a reliable strategy for addressing, focusing on, and solving basic musical/ear training deficiencies.
Yes. I AM OLD (but I am able to hear the difference between a Diminished triad and an Augmented triad...the Nuns would smack us upside the head, if we were not able to discern the difference. jk.)
Thx.

 

[KeepItMoving]

I found the Theta Music Training apps very helpful when I started playing fretless - they’re game-like but do a good job of cultivating the ability to quickly distinguish pitches:

Theta Music Trainer: Ear Training and Music Theory

Ear Training and Music Theory for all musicians. Sharpen your musicianship and aural skills through an exploration of sound, pitch, scales, intervals, melody, chords, progressions and rhythm.

trainer.thetamusic.com

 

[logdrum]

Well it is an app ont the web browser Drone Tone Tool and it is free It is callthe drone tool. It will only give youreference pitch and is up to you to train your ear. May still need a keyboard but if you an iPhone you can get garange band and that has a virtual piano as well. I like the drone tool because it is a sample of real strings (cellos) and it definitely helped me to recognize pitches .

I hope you know the theory like what is the minor and major third of C for example. Since you are talking about descending relative intervals, I assume you do.

This one only needs a web browser or you can get the app (it's cheap) if you have no connection.

 

[Jmilitsc]

Maybe the current trend of "maxxing and multitasking" is not a reliable strategy for addressing, focusing on, and solving basic musical/ear training deficiencies.
Yes. I AM OLD (but I am able to hear the difference between a Diminished triad and an Augmented triad...the Nuns would smack us upside the head, if we were not able to discern the difference. jk.)
Thx.

As a fellow older person, but one who wasn’t nun-smacked into ingraining this at a younger age, finding any and every opportunity to develop my ear now is essential. If i had the time nowadays to sit at a piano on this every day-ish, and also practice on the bass, across all the genres i like to play in, then that’d be just great. But… day job, that i also love. I’m not a full time professional musician is the thing - available time is the hard part. So then the car time is to obsessively listen, attempt to transcribe from recordings, and practice on ear work away from the instrument. It’s my only open ingraining time. I cherish when i do get chunks of time to approach the work the “right” way.

I know you’re kidding a bit but kidding aside, the stuff learned young really sticks foundationally. Your contributions on TB are appreciated btw, they push and inspire me. I genuinely and deeply wish I’d spent better time as a kid/young adult learning all this as many ppl did when that time was available, but I came to this later and can’t press repeat on that one.

 

[Bruce Calin]

A few impressions from teaching adult students: They have a much harder time learning than younger ones, and are more impatient when it's not as easy as they thought it would be. I gave up on using newer technology when I realized that, at least for me, there are no usable ways to learn or teach the basics other than taking the time required. ( "It takes as long as it takes.") Often this is more than adults want to spend and want shortcuts that IMO simply don't work. A simple technique or concept that a kid can grasp quite easily can baffle an adult who then gets frustrated. The best situation is to be a smart, motivated fifteen year old. If that's not possible, if some app seems to help you, great, but expect it to take longer and have limited results. JMO

 

[Don Kasper]

@Jmilitsc
Thanks for your insightful response.
I would hope that the OP, or anyone struggling with "hearing" Diminished or Augmented triads, would be told (preferably by a Nun!) to simply SING OUTLOUD Major/Minor/Augmented/Diminished triads (while driving?). If this is a struggle, then more focused work (at a keyboard?) is necessary.
Using an APP is a passive process which reduces the user to a mere Observer, while Singing Outloud transforms (Abstract?) Music Theory into a Visceral experience, one that often involves a measure of struggle & pain(!).
IMFO, of course.
Thx

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

I've made more progress in ear training in 3 months of committed solfege singing over chords on piano/guitar than 5 years (really) of trying apps on and off.
Taking a 10-week online solfege intensive at the beginning helped massively,

 

[bass player 53]

I've made more progress in ear training in 3 months of committed solfege singing over chords on piano/guitar than 5 years (really) of trying apps on and off.
Taking a 10-week online solfege intensive at the beginning helped massively,

FWIW, much of the world uses, teaches, and learns the solfège system. On the Chinese WeChat, dozens of live streamers, many, fine musicians demonstrate their use of this. A lot show their knowledge of both systems, and China has produced much of the world’s finest musicians in the last couple of decades.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

FWIW, much of the world uses, teaches, and learns the solfège system. On the Chinese WeChat, dozens of live streamers, many, fine musicians demonstrate their use of this. A lot show their knowledge of both systems, and China has produced much of the world’s finest musicians in the last couple of decades.

Cool, my teacher trained solfege here in U.S.