eBay/PayPal ripoff conspiracy

[Engine207]

I bought a Fender Jazz V from a dude on eBay about 2 months back. While waiting for it, I found an Ibanez BTB455 for a ridiculous price, and I couldn't pass it up. When the Fender arrived, I had it set up by Joe, my favorite Fender tech at The Bass Place, and decided that a little A/B was in order. After a few weeks, I chose the Ibby. I love it, but that's not what this thread is about.

After having made the choice, I put the Fender V on eBay, and after 5 days, it sold for $350. Reasonable. When it arrived at the buyer's home, he decided he didn't want it and asked me for a full refund. Well, I spent that money on my MIM fretless about 30 seconds after it hit my account. His take, originally, was that the strings buzzed. I told him that it was tuned down a step for shipping. Then, he said it was unplayable. When I refused to refund him, he threatened me with a claim.

In the claim, he stated the reason was that the bass was "not as described"...which is complete BS, since I not only described it, but posted about 10 photos. Then, he claimed it was "internally damaged". Whatever.

When the claim went to PayPal, they refused to even look at my receipt from the set-up, disregarded that the auction explicitly stated "no returns accepted", and didn't even ask him in what manner it was "not accurately described" or "internally damaged".

They ruled in his favor, froze my account, and returned his money (leaving me in the hole with PayPal for the sale price). The PayPal CSR told me that they almost always rule in favor of the buyer, regardless of the "no returns" status, so it's rigged to begin with. When I requested an appeal, they told me that despite my documentation (which they wouldn't look at), they "don't reverse their decisions, because they fear getting involved in litigation"; "It's just easier to refund the buyer's money and have them return the item".

And here's the real kicker...When I got it back, it was still tuned ADGCF. The keys to the case were still attached to the string tree. It was even wrapped exactly as I wrapped it with painter's tape holding the bubble wrap! It hadn't even come out of the box!!!!

Folks, beware of eBay and PayPal transactions. With this happening, any crank can make you pay almost $65 in fees and shipping so they can have your bass for a few weeks.

 

[nad]

Weird. But hey! You got the bass back!

One time on eBay I logged into my account, and noticed something odd: someone had bid on an item, won it, paid for it with their own money, and then left positive feedback to the seller. All of this using my account. Bunch of savages in this town.

 

[Craig_S]

One time on eBay I logged into my account, and noticed something odd: someone had bid on an item, won it, paid for it with their own money, and then left positive feedback to the seller. All of this using my account. Bunch of savages in this town.

Did they use your fingers to type it all in, as well??

OP: Sorry for your luck. I have never sold a bass on eBay; only pedals and smaller things. I'm always wary of any sale or purchase on that stupid site. Anymore, I try to sell locally or on the TB Classified forum.

 

[anyonefortennis]

Did you at least call the guy out on it?

 

[5string5fingers]

What good would that have done? The guy got his money back already and paypal refuses to do anything. I think its a bunch of bullsh-t,it's probably not the first time that guy has done that to someone.

 

[Flatty Banks]

I hate people like that.

 

[Electric Druid]

He probably hit "buy it now" and got the buyers remorse right after. But its really surprising that paypal didn't even listen your side.

I was thinking about putting some stuff on ebay...now I'm having second thoughts.

What a bunch of #@$%

 

[ProfGumby]

He probably hit "buy it now" and got the buyers remorse right after. But its really surprising that paypal didn't even listen your side.

I was thinking about putting some stuff on ebay...now I'm having second thoughts.

What a bunch of #@$%

That or his wife kicked him in the beans and made him return it.....

I am always leery of evilbay. But then it occurs to me that out of the billions of transactions that have taken place on ebay, a percentage of them have to be bad deals. The problem is, people use ebay and people are sometimes really messed up....or their wife/girlfriend has their nuggets in a dresser drawer.

 

[Rattman]

I am totally against EVER using PayPal for anything... Nor would I buy or sell an instrument sight-unseen via eBay... But that's just me.. Craigslist is the way to really "be sure" for both buyer and seller alike. Sorry you lost your claims case.. plus they snubbed your evidence too.

 

[lefty007]

I sympathize with your story. It's true, Paypal and eBay are not 100% safe systems.

But you can't deny that eBay and Paypal have opened up an incredible venue for trading, otherwise impossible. Without them, trading is limited to local deals, and it would be even more risky (like Craiglist, for example,) to sell outside your town if eBay and Paypal didn't exist.

I've taken hits on eBay, but the gains have more than make up for the losses.

Did your buyer had a good list of positive feedback on eBay?

Experienced eBayer usually won't do something like that, but of course, there are less-than-honest people out there.

My experience.

 

[Engine207]

He probably hit "buy it now" and got the buyers remorse right after. But its really surprising that paypal didn't even listen your side.

I was thinking about putting some stuff on ebay...now I'm having second thoughts.

What a bunch of #@$%

Nah, this was no impulse. We actually communicated back and forth a bit before he bid. He said he'd even pay me a bit more if I shipped it in a hardshell case and kept the gigbag I was offering. Said he was some country musician and he just got a gig with a band, so he needed a 5er in a hurry.

My bet is he found something locally cheaper, and bought it. Then he just decided to stick it to me and break it off, instead of just selling the Fender himelf (like the way I did when I found my Ibby).

I hope he gets crabs...

 

[Subscript]

I post on record collecting forum and about a month ago one of the regulars bought a big lot of NOFX records (about 20 I believe). When they showed up at his door he found out the 7" records had tack holes/marks on the corners of the sleeves, and the LPs were all warped with water damaged sleeves. He filed a claim on got denied because he didn't ask about the condition of the records.

The paypal claim system must work sometimes, but extreme cases like these just seem ridiculous.

 

[Ronny49]

Yah ... YOU got your bass BACK!! How would you feel if Paypal were to refund the buyer and not worry whether he returned it or not??

PAYPAL SUCKED ME DRY ON A SALE!!!

They are nothing but a bunch C##K S##KING A$$#OLES!!

Did you know that ebay's stock is down so low that they are the laughing stock (get it?? laughing STOCK - hehe) on wall street!??? This is TRUE!!

Ebay/Paypal corps are failing and they have NO clue what the #ell they are doing! Morons!!

And ... for all of you that don't know this... ebay owns 25% of Craigslist!! Don't believe me?? Do a quick search for ebay vs craigslist.

Also, Kijiji.com is an ebay company!

 

[loend68]

Didn't they recently change the feedback system so sellers could not file negative feedback against buyers??

I thought that was a load.....

 

[mr.mow]

Didn't they recently change the feedback system so sellers could not file negative feedback against buyers??

I thought that was a load.....

Yes they did.. I had a guy buy my amp the other week, then decided he didn't want it simple as that 'yeah thanks.. but I don't want it now, so you can re list it'..

knowing full well there is NOTHING you can do about it..

 

[RAM]

Well, in the end, what are you out? Shipping costs? I don't know if there's a way to recoup that or not...

Sure, it's frustrating, but you can re-list it or keep it. At least you're not out the goods. I wouldn't go so far as to call that a ripoff conspiracy, as you're not really "out" anything. Between Paypal and eBay, they didn't do anything egregious. It sucks. Move on.

 

[shadowmac]

Nah, this was no impulse. We actually communicated back and forth a bit before he bid. He said he'd even pay me a bit more if I shipped it in a hardshell case and kept the gigbag I was offering. Said he was some country musician and he just got a gig with a band, so he needed a 5er in a hurry.

My bet is he found something locally cheaper, and bought it. Then he just decided to stick it to me and break it off, instead of just selling the Fender himelf (like the way I did when I found my Ibby).

I hope he gets crabs...

Devil's Advocate here:

I agree that the fact that the guy was able to return the bass after a "No Returns" disclaimer was present on the auction is absolute B.S.. The fact that he tried makes him an absolute jag or REALLY desperate.

BUT, there is a little history on eBay that has made them decide to protect the buyers more so than the sellers - THIS WAS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE!

I'll explain: Over the last 10 years, I have made over 400 transactions on eBay with 100% (+) feedback. I have bought and sold guitars, basses, gear and many other things there. I bought my Parker Fly Bass 4 and my Parker Fly Bass 5 there, as well as a Carvin bass, several Ibanez guitars, 4 Jackson guitars and 2 Peavey USA Cirrus basses.

If you've seen pix of my gear, you've seen my blue and red Cirrus 5's. (Here's a link to the pic:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=369609&highlight=shadowmac&page=18
The red one was supposed to be "new old stock" in flawless condition from a music store with not quite perfect feedback, but close with numerous (+) transactions. The photos of the bass showed a flawless instrument as well. When I got it, it had moderate buckle rash and 2 other scratches. I immediately contacted the seller. He said (and I quote) "You are an F-ing liar". I was pissssssssssssssssed! I took a dozen photos and even a one minute movie of me pointing out the scratches and rash AND the UPS delivery statement for that very day. I had only had the bass 20 minutes! I sent these to him and asked (since his reaction was so severe) if there was any possible way that someone played this bass since he had taken the photos of it for the auction without his knowledge. He told me in an email the next day that his nephew had taken the bass and gigged with it without permission. I asked for $150 back to pay for the refurbishment at RAUEN Guitars in Milwaukee, which was going to run me over $200. He said no way, but that I could send the bass back and he would reimburse me MINUS SHIPPING. ***, Right? He knew I was 100% in the right and he still was not working with me. I wasn't about to ship it back to him - then I'd likely be out a bass and the money. A few months later eBay changed the buyer protection and feedback policies.

Here's the deal. Up until about a year ago, eBay protected sellers from unscrupulous buyers, who didn't pay, or said an item was damaged when it was not, etc.. The Sellers would use feedback as a blackmail. It became an "I'll leave (-) feedback for you if you leave it for me" concept, and the negative feedback would have hurt me (and most everyday buyers) far more than it would him. My buying and selling depends on (+) feedback. So to protect myself, I unethically left neutral feedback for several sellers. Though I said the hell with it in this dude's case and left him (-). I couldn't let him screw somebody else. He'd probably screwed a lot of people and blackmailed them all into leaving neutral or even (+) feedback.

Well, eBay caught wind of this and a year ago a change was instituted; now sellers can't post negative feedback against buyers if the transaction has been completed within the time allowed by the auction. Buyers now have the upper hand and sellers know that they have to be honest and fair to stay in business. They can't blackmail buyers with threats of (-) feedback anymore.

As I've stated, I have over 400 transactions and only a handful of them have stuck in my craw. All of those were worked out fairly in the end EXCEPT for my red cirrus - that one still burns me...but I did have it fixed and I did record 3 of four songs on HEDDA's EP with it! I love that bass!
Anyway, I've sold a lot of gear including my Parker Fly 5 on eBay in the last year without a hitch and as a buyer you can get deals that you just can't get anywhere else.

Some jag screwed you, that makes him an A-hole. Don't lose good buying and selling opportunities (aka eBay) because of one jag. I got screwed by a dishonest jag too. BUT, I have prospered far more than I've suffered on eBay.

I'll jump off my soapbox now. And NO, I am not a music dealer, nor do I work for eBay. Just a musician who has found many a good deal there.

JM

 

[smcd]

Folks, beware of eBay and PayPal transactions. With this happening, any crank can make you pay almost $65 in fees and shipping so they can have your bass for a few weeks.

Would you mind posting the buyer's ebay identity here? Just as a heads up to anyone selling on ebay in the future?

 

[Shooter McGavin]

I'll second shadow on this. I have 930+ feedbacks and made a small living at buying/refurbing/selling for a while. There has been a continuum shift in eBay's policies towards buyers/sellers from the good ole days. The merger of eBay/PP several years ago, along with a changing of CEO's from the original crew have played a significant part as well.

The bottom line is that eBay has attempted to become more of an Amazon.com type marketplace than an auction site. You'll see that more and more incentive has been given to sellers that sell primarily with Buy It Now and free shipping. Free shipping also neatly equals more eBay final sale fees. Buyers are heavily leveraged toward Paypal payments - also more fees in the bank. The new "5 star" system, which is also a joke, allows customers to rate sellers on various points like shipping costs. If you fall too far below the averages, you can be suspended. Under this system, if you rated a 4.0 out of 5.0, you are at the absolute bottom of the barrel and likely suspended. Pretty dumb....

Anyone who thinks "all sales final", "as is", "no returns", or any multitude of high-res photographs, documentation, or emails protects them from any returns is simply incorrect.

The unfortunate bottom line is this: If your buyer files a Paypal "significantly not as described" claim for ANY reason, they ARE going to get their money back. PERIOD. The sooner you cooperate, the sooner it will be over for both parties. I have had this happen a few times. The last time I sold a bass, my original buyer balked over some really, really minute defects, and despite getting a great deal filed a SNAD claim. He got his $ back, and I had no choice.

Lousy system? Yep. The best advice I can give is ALWAYS insure your items for FULL value, even if the buyer doesnt want to pay the extra. That has SAVED my ass once as well.

Until some other auction company steps up and breaks the eBay monopoly, there really is no alternative other than local sales or Amazon.com.

 

[smcd]

Well, eBay caught wind of this and a year ago a change was instituted; now sellers can't post negative feedback against buyers if the transaction has been completed within the time allowed by the auction. Buyers now have the upper hand and sellers know that they have to be honest and fair to stay in business. They can't blackmail buyers with threats of (-) feedback anymore.

I bought a 60's Epiphone bat wing a few years back. The guitar had a repaired headstock that was not listed in the item description. I had a go-round with the guy, and was refunded a few bucks, but it wasn't worth my while to risk negative feedback on a $350 transaction. On that end, I kind of agree with ebay's policy. As a buyer.

I was under the distinct impression that the main reason ebay is treating the sellers like this is to increase the number of buyers. The logic being that building a potential buyer's confidence would expand the buying pool.


Still, ebay has been very good for me. Both as a buyer and a seller.