Edumacate Me About Mixer Boards

[FunkySpoo]

Ok, first off I know nothing about live sound. Been a bass player all my life in bands where somebody else ran sound. Now I have my own band where my sax player had a ton of live sound gear and we have a guy helping out running sound when we're playing. It's an 8 piece band so running sound from the stage is probably not a good idea. Anyway, sax guy is leaving and taking all his cool gear. So step one, I guess, is not only do I need recommendations on a mixer but also some good links that can teach me about live sound gear. My band's line up is:
Vocal
Guitar with vocal
Bass with vocal
Drums
Keys with vocal
Sax
Trombone
Trumpet

More info: We don't play big places. We're just a bunch of 50 somethings playing in our local restaurant/bars. Where we are there are no bars with a stage and all that. It's usually a restaurant/bar with the band setting up along one wall type of deal.

I really appreciate any help I get here and feel free to ask any questions that would help you help me.
Sorry for the long post, I was hoping to keep it short.

 

[JohnMCA72]

Running sound from the stage is a bad idea no matter how many are in the band.

Channels: Add up the total of how many mics, DIs, aux inputs (iPod, CD player, etc.)you need & add 50%.

Powered vs. unpowered: You're probably not going to find a powered mixer with enough input channels for your band. An unpowered mixer gives you a lot of options & system configuartion possibilities. A powered mixer limits the speakers you can add or upgrade.

Auxes: With 8 players, chances are you'll want several different monitor mixes. Pre-fader auxes are usually used for monitors & post-fader auxes for effects.

Speaking of effects: On-board (i.e. built into the mixer) can be handy, but they're often limited, poor, or both. Boards with on-board effects usually make room for them by taking out something more useful, like an aux or 2. I like to run outboard effects back into input channels rather than effects returns, to take advantage of the channels' EQ & routing options (see channel count, above), which usually isn't even a viable option with on-board effects.

I like having a lot of flexibility when it comes to putting together a system for a particular gig. I have unpowered analog mixers, a couple racks of outboard effects, EQs, etc. that are set up so that I can use 1, the other, or both, & all powered speakers that can do duty as main tops, floor wedges, side fills, etc. as the situation calls for.

Don't forget mics, cables, stands, adapters, etc. It's pretty easy to spend as much, or even more, on "misc." stuff as you do on a mixer or on speakers.

Also, don't forget to plan for a vehicle that can haul everything!

 

[frnjplayer]

JohnM covered most of it. Read the part about cables, stands and adapters at least twice. If you're getting into the PA biz the mixer is actually a small part of the game. From your description it sounds like you need everything, not just a mixer.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] Go to the junior varsity section and ask questions. Make sure you're sitting down when you start to add up the $$$$ on a low end PA system.

 

[FunkySpoo]

Thanks, so it looks like I'll need a 16 channel mixer. I already bought powered mains and stands and cables that I was using with sax player's mixer and he was using his sub and passive monitors. So it looks like I'll need three or four monitors. I figure the horn guys can buy their own mics and I already have 4 vocal mics and stands and cables. I'll probably need a snake right? Stupid question: This Mackie 16 channel mixer says 16 channels but I only see 10 inputs that look like input from a mic or DI. Clearly I'm missing something but I don't know enough to know what that is.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[jimfist]

Running sound from the stage is a bad idea no matter how many are in the band.

Hmmm. Running sound from the stage may not be preferable, but ALWAYS a bad idea? Fortunately (or not) for me, I've got literally hundreds of gigs under my belt - successful shows most of the time - where sound was run from the stage. I don't recommend it for PA novices, and some musicians can be outright DANGEROUS running sound, but to make this blanket statement is IMHO not necessarily true all of the time.

In the case of the OP, he might be better served to hire a competent, trustworthy (LOL - hard to find!!!) sound tech/mixer who can work with the band for a few gigs and give them some advice on gear acquisitions and live sound.

 

[EastCoastThump]

More info: We don't play big places. We're just a bunch of 50 somethings playing in our local restaurant/bars. Where we are there are no bars with a stage and all that. It's usually a restaurant/bar with the band setting up along one wall type of deal.

Low volume restaurant gigs often use the PA sparingly if the band is using stage amps. How many inputs do you need?

• When using the former player's PA, what did the band mic besides vocals?
• Does the keys player run through a stage amp, or just direct to PA?
  
• How many channels does the keys player need?
• Is the guitarist on electric through a stage amp, or does he need to be in the PA (modeling direct to PA, or switching b/w acoustic and electric?)
  
• I'm guessing horns aren't in the PA or monitors.
  
• If the drummer is on an acoustic kit instead of edrums, how do you handle drum mics? (Do you mic only kick drum, close mic everything, or somewhere in between?)

 

[frnjplayer]

Thanks, so it looks like I'll need a 16 channel mixer. I already bought powered mains and stands and cables that I was using with sax player's mixer and he was using his sub and passive monitors. So it looks like I'll need three or four monitors. I figure the horn guys can buy their own mics and I already have 4 vocal mics and stands and cables. I'll probably need a snake right? Stupid question: This Mackie 16 channel mixer says 16 channels but I only see 10 inputs that look like input from a mic or DI. Clearly I'm missing something but I don't know enough to know what that is.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

This is often referred to as Mackie math however they are NOT the only ones using it. The mixer shown has 16 possible inputs. 10 are mic pre's and the rest are some form of stereo line level in's. Okay if you are feeding some iPod's or outboard effects back into the mixer. Not so handy if you need 16 inputs coming from the stage. Look for something with 14-16 XLR (mic type) inputs. The Allen Heath MixWiz models can be found fairly cheap used and are good bang for the buck.

 

[FunkySpoo]

Low volume restaurant gigs often use the PA sparingly if the band is using stage amps. How many inputs do you need?

• When using the former player's PA, what did the band mic besides vocals?
• Does the keys player run through a stage amp, or just direct to PA?
  
• How many channels does the keys player need?
• Is the guitarist on electric through a stage amp, or does he need to be in the PA (modeling direct to PA, or switching b/w acoustic and electric?)
  
• I'm guessing horns aren't in the PA or monitors.
  
• If the drummer is on an acoustic kit instead of edrums, how do you handle drum mics? (Do you mic only kick drum, close mic everything, or somewhere in between?)

Drummer has a little mixer at his side then runs one line to the board. I've never run through the house since I can carry the room easily with my rig. Guitar and keys sometimes mic their cabs but usually not. Horns, 3 of them, go through the PA. So at a minimum, 4 vocals, 1 for the drummer and 3 for the horns. So that's eight. So maybe I can get away with a 12 channel if I go with the need plus 50% rule mentioned above.

 

[FunkySpoo]

Excellent advice and questions so far guys. Thanks, keep it coming.

 

[Zooberwerx]

The good news is the proliferation of competitively priced digital gear is, to some degree, driving down the price of used analog stuff. Don't pay top-dollar for used.

Riis

 

[DieterVDW]

Hmmm. Running sound from the stage may not be preferable, but ALWAYS a bad idea? Fortunately (or not) for me, I've got literally hundreds of gigs under my belt - successful shows most of the time - where sound was run from the stage. I don't recommend it for PA novices, and some musicians can be outright DANGEROUS running sound, but to make this blanket statement is IMHO not necessarily true all of the time.

Hmm, it's better than nothing, but on stage you have absolutely no idea how it sounds in the room.
Even if you mix it @ soundcheck while listinging in the room: an empty room vs. a filled room is a COMPLETELY different situation...
I guess you can make a mix based on what you hear on stage, but one you amplify that in a room that changes quite a bit.
I mostly agree with the statement from JohnMCA72 .

 

[Slevage]

Running sound from the stage is a bad idea no matter how many are in the band

Difficult--- yes. But good results are possible with a little work. It's a good idea when $ is an issue. Sounds like the OP's situation is just that.

 

[BucketOfFish]

More info: We don't play big places. We're just a bunch of 50 somethings playing in our local restaurant/bars. Where we are there are no bars with a stage and all that. It's usually a restaurant/bar with the band setting up along one wall type of deal.

For small places you may find that you only need to mic the four vocals and maybe the kick but that depends on how much your band likes to blow the windows out. Most times you probably won't haul a sub.
Since you already have powered mains, I'd just get a 12 to 16 channel board (just for future posibilties) and four monitors (powered?) for now, then evaluate the need for a sub or just get one now. Never said what your budget is. To ease the financial and transport burden you could have everyone get their own mic, cable and stand.

Oh yeah...get a wireless so you can do sound checks from "out there".
And maybe one of these to set the mixer on. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-X-Workhorse-Workbench-17185155/202021304

 

[jimfist]

Hmm, it's better than nothing, but on stage you have absolutely no idea how it sounds in the room.

Yes....and no. Sound check gets you pretty close, and then you use whatever means at your disposal to further monitor the FOH mix as the night progresses. Band members commonly will briefly step out front during a song intro when they aren't playing. Singers with wireless mics are free to (carefully) roam the room. Speaking for myself, I've played a lot of gigs and also mixed a lot of bands FOH. I would argue that, with enough experience, you absolutely CAN gauge how it sounds out front from the stage, depending on the stage and the venue, and how well you know the (ambient) acoustic properties of the room you're playing.

Nobody said it was going to sound perfect, but for a $500 per night local club band, "acceptably good" is all that is needed. In many small, +/- 200 capacity local bars, a prominent vocal mix, a little kick/sn/hh and toms blended in from the drums, and solos that can be heard when necessary, is pretty much all you need to accomplish. IMHO that ain't rocket science.

Even if you mix it @ soundcheck while listinging in the room: an empty room vs. a filled room is a COMPLETELY different situation...
I guess you can make a mix based on what you hear on stage, but one you amplify that in a room that changes quite a bit.
I mostly agree with the statement from JohnMCA72 .

Let's boil it down this way: I've never been in a band that lost a gig in a local night club because of bad sound as mixed from the stage. I have lost gigs at bars, with full complement of high quality production and staff, for either inappropriate song list or low attendance. Those gigs sounded GREAT, though. On the flip side, I've done some gigs where the PA had horrendous problems getting up and running (gremlins...sometimes it just turns out this way) and the sound was passable at best. It didn't matter. The club was packed and everyone had a good time...nobody even knew or cared about our sound problems.

Again, we're not talking about the wine and cheese "listening" jazz crowd, or the 500+ capacity high profile, high cover charge night clubs with lots of cash flow...we're talking about local bars that need their bands to perform the simple task of getting bodies in the door who want to drink (a LOT) and dance and have fun. Excellent sound is always something we strive for...however, on the list of priorities (just ask the club owner), the perceived "excellence" of your FOH mix will always take a back seat to the number of bodies in the building and how much they spend. Period. It is not difficult to accommodate this situation with reasonably good equipment and a bit of skillful stage mixing, given this premise.

Those who CAN do this successfully continue to do it successfully. As for those who cannot or won't...sorry, but I don't really know what to tell you. In my career as a musician, I've made an awful lot of money in bands mixing from the stage, as have many others I'm sure.

JMHO =)

 

[Vanceman]

I agree with jimfist, been doing it this way for years in small bars, resturants, backyard parties, etc. Between sets, I'll ask people I know how the sound is. I usually get 'sounds great, but turn up the bass.' lol
I work the effects during songs, the vocalist adjust thier own channel, and the mains and monitors are daisy-chained, so if it sounds good on stage, it sounds good out front. We're not a loud band.

This is with vocals, keys, acoustic guitar and kick in the PA. Doesn't work well on a large outdoor venue, but then FOH would be provided anyway.

 

[FunkySpoo]

Difficult--- yes. But good results are possible with a little work. It's a good idea when $ is an issue. Sounds like the OP's situation is just that.

Money is kinda sorta an issue. My guitar player has a Yamaha mixer in his basement but he's not sure how many channels it is. So if it can handle the amount of inputs we need then I'll spend more on a decent sub and then get a better mixer down the road. I was thinking in the 1k range for a sub would be enough for what we need for the size places we play. We're a classic Motown/Soul band so I think we need the extra booty down low.

 

[FunkySpoo]

So a little window shopping with the info I've gotten from you guys and I think, if the mixer my guitar player doesn't have enough inputs, one of these might do the trick:
Allen & Heath ZED-22FX
Yamaha MG1666C-CA
Yamaha MG166CX
Yamaha MG206C
Yamaha MG206C-USB

If it does have enough inputs then I'll probably spend more on a sub like the KW181 which is actually over my comfort level spending wise but it seems so be a killer sub. Any other suggestions on subs?

 

[ggunn]

Powered vs. unpowered: You're probably not going to find a powered mixer with enough input channels for your band.

FWIW, there is a place here in Austin (Rock N Roll Rentals) where I can rent a 16 channel powered mixer, and I think they have a 24.

That said, I'd buy an unpowered mixer so that should the opportunity arise I could upgrade board or power amp (or powered speakers) separately.

 

[FunkySpoo]

FWIW, there is a place here in Austin (Rock N Roll Rentals) where I can rent a 16 channel powered mixer, and I think they have a 24.

That said, I'd buy an unpowered mixer so that should the opportunity arise I could upgrade board or power amp (or powered speakers) separately.

Yup, that's the route I'm going: Unpowered mixer with powered mains and monitors.

 

[FunkySpoo]

So the mixer my guitar player has a mixer with 10 mic inputs so it'll be adequate for now sooooooo it looks like I'm going to get a sub in the next month or so. Suggestions in the $500 to $750 and $750 to $1200 range?

Thanks