Edumacate Me About Mixer Boards

[nogoodwithnames]

So the mixer my guitar player has has 10 mic inputs so it'll be adequate for now sooooooo it looks like I'm going to get a sub in the next month or so. Suggestions in the $500 to $750 and $750 to $1200 range?

Thanks

I have a pair of EV elx18p subs and I'm very happy. I paid a little over $600 each. I must admit I have never owned any other sub to compare it to, but we did use some Yorkville powered 18's(can't recall model off hand) for a time and they were amazing. But I believe they're about 3x the cost as well.

 

[jimfist]

QSC powered 18" subs KW181, they've always worked great in my experience, but are about $1400. Also have had good experiences with the Mackie HD1501 ($899 ea).

 

[mellowinman]

Hmmm. Running sound from the stage may not be preferable, but ALWAYS a bad idea? Fortunately (or not) for me, I've got literally hundreds of gigs under my belt - successful shows most of the time - where sound was run from the stage. I don't recommend it for PA novices, and some musicians can be outright DANGEROUS running sound, but to make this blanket statement is IMHO not necessarily true all of the time.

In the case of the OP, he might be better served to hire a competent, trustworthy (LOL - hard to find!!!) sound tech/mixer who can work with the band for a few gigs and give them some advice on gear acquisitions and live sound.

If I could find a sound person, I would stop running sound from the stage. Until then, I will continue to do so.

 

[mellowinman]

So a little window shopping with the info I've gotten from you guys and I think, if the mixer my guitar player doesn't have enough inputs, one of these might do the trick:
Allen & Heath ZED-22FX
Yamaha MG1666C-CA
Yamaha MG166CX
Yamaha MG206C
Yamaha MG206C-USB

If it does have enough inputs then I'll probably spend more on a sub like the KW181 which is actually over my comfort level spending wise but it seems so be a killer sub. Any other suggestions on subs?

I bought this:

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It has always served me well.

 

[AndyPanda]

While it is true that from the stage you can't know what it sounds like out front ... I will say that unless you have a good sound guy, you can do it better yourself. And IME with a 7-8 piece band doing original music, having a good soundman means you need a soundman that knows your material and your instrumentation (a soundman that is a part of your band).

Get a board you can control with an iPad and go wireless so you can get out front during your show to listen. Things will sound very different with people in the audience ... and 200 people in the room will sound a lot different from 30 people in the room. But you can learn what the differences are and learn to anticipate it and compensate from the stage.

There's nothing like having a really good soundman out front who knows your band and your material ... but it's rare to get that in a house soundman.

And another thought - since you want to learn all about boards and mixing. If you start mixing you will soon discover that each musician believes his instrument is not loud enough in the mix ... any guitar players in the audience will always tell you the guitar isn't loud enough ... any sax player in the audience will tell you the sax isn't loud enough. That's just the way it is ... and you, as the sound man, will have to fight to not turn yourself up louder than everyone else. If you mix until you sound loud enough to yourself, you will almost certainly be louder than everyone else.

 

[jimfist]

I guess what we're all saying here is that "stage sound mixers" are generally control freaks. LOL! I do think there is an element of this.

Then there's always the "tin ear sound person" aspect of this. I've heard my share of FOH mixes butchered by sound mixers, to the point where I've literally had to fire them on the spot between sets, do a quick re-check with an un-attended mix, and proceed knowing that - at the very least - the FOH mix isn't inflicting harm on the audience, which is leagues better than a sound mixer who is: hearing deficient or deaf, unqualified (doesn't know what he/she is doing), can't get a grip on the mix, is mixing jazz when we're playing rock and roll, is more interested in amusing himself toying around with special effects or noise gating the life out of the drum mix, ignoring input/output overloads going on in the PA (of their own making, usually), is too busy drinking & playing grab-ass to do the job... etc. (oh yes, there are many, many stories to be told). But...no sound person bashing here on the forum!!

OTOH, when I know that the FOH mixer is doing a good job, I can almost instantaneously tell by the "vibe" both on stage and in the room. It is quantifiable in my experience, and things are very good when this happens (which is less than 20% of the time these days, unfortunately).

 

[AndyPanda]

I'm not saying the sound man has "tin ears" ... he might really know his board and have great ears but still have no idea what your band is supposed to sound like.

What I'm saying is that most house sound guys are familiar with drums, guitar and bass. And most are really proud of their subwoofers and really want to show everyone how loud they can get the kick. Many house sound guys have no idea how to mic a sax or trumpet (or a bandoneon or any other "odd" instruments) sax and trumpet are very different in how they are mic'ed - sound from a sax spreads out and isn't really focused at the bell - trumpet is very focused at the bell (many sound guys expect the sax and trumpet to play into the same mic - trumpet is very loud and sax can't be heard). In larger bands with lots of different instruments, the house sound guy might see that the flute mic isn't being used so he mutes it ... for example I only play flute on two songs ... so I pick up the flute and play a solo and by the time the house sound guy notices and un-mutes the mic, the solo is over. That is the sort of thing where having a soundman who knows your material is helpful.

 

[jimfist]

I'm not saying the sound man has "tin ears" ... he might really know his board and have great ears but still have no idea what your band is supposed to sound like.

No, you're not. I am. ;-)

 

[mellowinman]

You can tell if the soundman has a tin ear, because he just turned everything to bright and trebly. If you eq everything properly, he'll say, "it sounds muddy." I'm like, "Dude, EVERYTHING sounds muddy to you. Haven't you noticed that?"

Anyway, yeah, I leave my harmonica muted all night, until three songs in a row where I use it. On another song, I blow the harp into my vocal mic. Why the difference? Do you care? Why would you? It is what it is.

Another thing is, house sound guy will play rap, and modern music between our sets, because "that's what the kids like." DOES OUR SET LIST LOOK LIKE WE GIVE A RAT'S PATOOTIE WHAT THE KIDS LIKE???? HMMMM???

WELL DOES IT???

Of course not. I am not having you blast the ears off all our adult fans who came to hear classic rock, with a bunch of music they hate, just so you can get the two underaged girls who shouldn't even be in this club out onto the dance floor. I play a really cool mix of R&B, Prog and Punk that I get a lot of positive feedback on, and I play it at a LOWER volume than when the band is on.

And if you are impressed with how loud the kick is, you will be equally impressed with how hard the kick is. THE KICK IN YOUR ASS when you don't get our vocals up over the music!!!!

 

[frnjplayer]

So a little window shopping with the info I've gotten from you guys and I think, if the mixer my guitar player doesn't have enough inputs, one of these might do the trick:
Allen & Heath ZED-22FX
Yamaha MG1666C-CA
Yamaha MG166CX
Yamaha MG206C
Yamaha MG206C-USB

If it does have enough inputs then I'll probably spend more on a sub like the KW181 which is actually over my comfort level spending wise but it seems so be a killer sub. Any other suggestions on subs?

I have one of the Zed's and I'm very happy with it.
The Zed series tends to be a little larger but has a few more features that I liked over the Yamaha's. Both companies make decent boards.

 

[Munjibunga]

Running sound from the stage is a bad idea no matter how many are in the band.

Channels: Add up the total of how many mics, DIs, aux inputs (iPod, CD player, etc.)you need & add 50%.

Powered vs. unpowered: You're probably not going to find a powered mixer with enough input channels for your band. An unpowered mixer gives you a lot of options & system configuartion possibilities. A powered mixer limits the speakers you can add or upgrade.

Auxes: With 8 players, chances are you'll want several different monitor mixes. Pre-fader auxes are usually used for monitors & post-fader auxes for effects.

Speaking of effects: On-board (i.e. built into the mixer) can be handy, but they're often limited, poor, or both. Boards with on-board effects usually make room for them by taking out something more useful, like an aux or 2. I like to run outboard effects back into input channels rather than effects returns, to take advantage of the channels' EQ & routing options (see channel count, above), which usually isn't even a viable option with on-board effects.

I like having a lot of flexibility when it comes to putting together a system for a particular gig. I have unpowered analog mixers, a couple racks of outboard effects, EQs, etc. that are set up so that I can use 1, the other, or both, & all powered speakers that can do duty as main tops, floor wedges, side fills, etc. as the situation calls for.

Don't forget mics, cables, stands, adapters, etc. It's pretty easy to spend as much, or even more, on "misc." stuff as you do on a mixer or on speakers.

Also, don't forget to plan for a vehicle that can haul everything!

This is sounding a lot like a 16-channel board, probably digital. The Presonus 16.4.2 AI might be the one, although Allen and Heath and Yamaha make good ones too. They could also go with one of the new tablet mixers something like the Mackie DL 1608L or Line6 Stagescape M20D. For someone new to mixing, these might be the way to go, since you're starting out fresh. They also eliminate the need for outboard effects racks.

Then get some good powered speakers. I like JBL. We have PRX series, but EONs are a lot cheaper and still sound good. The new powered speakers are even lighter than the old passive ones we used to lug around. They make setup easy, and you don't have to lug around 50- to 100-pound amp racks.

And yes, B-word gear is cheap, but it's cheap. Avoid it. If you want to spend less, look at Carvin or Peavey.

 

[BazzTard]

We had a drummer that INSISTED of micing his kick even in tiny pubs.

After arguing about this for a few gigs, I relented.

What I did, during the soundcheck, I'd humour him and turn the kick mic up loud. REALLY loud, BOOM BOOM BOOM.

Drummer really happy.

Turn kick mic OFF when gig starts.

He never noticed. As long as he went BOOM BOOM BOOM in the soundcheck he was happy lol

drummers......can't live with them....pass the peanuts.

 

[EastCoastThump]

^ Derail, but...On those small gigs, did you ever try mixing in just a little kick in the FOH?

 

[Munjibunga]

^ Derail, but...On those small gigs, did you ever try mixing in just a little kick in the FOH?

I always put a little in there to accent the attack of my bass notes.

 

[Munjibunga]

Thanks, so it looks like I'll need a 16 channel mixer. I already bought powered mains and stands and cables that I was using with sax player's mixer and he was using his sub and passive monitors. So it looks like I'll need three or four monitors. I figure the horn guys can buy their own mics and I already have 4 vocal mics and stands and cables. I'll probably need a snake right? Stupid question: This Mackie 16 channel mixer says 16 channels but I only see 10 inputs that look like input from a mic or DI. Clearly I'm missing something but I don't know enough to know what that is.

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If you're going analog and you want Mackie with 16 XLR inputs, the 1604VLZ4 is the one you want. Mackie boards aren't the best on the market, but they are good (I own four of them and have owned several others).

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[Munjibunga]

Alternately, you may want to try the Mackie ProFX22. It has built-in effects, rudimentary graphic EQ, and four channels with built-in compressors. It eliminates the need for outboard effects racks. I use a smaller version of this (ProFX12 and ProFX16) for my acoustic trio. It makes setup quick and easy, and sounds fine. Also, you get 16 XLR inputs plus a couple of stereo inputs. The bad news: only two auxes.

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[JohnMCA72]

Alternately, you may want to try the Mackie ProFX22. It has built-in effects, rudimentary graphic EQ, and four channels with built-in compressors. It eliminates the need for outboard effects racks. I use a smaller version of this (ProFX12 and ProFX16) for my acoustic trio. It makes setup quick and easy, and sounds fine. Also, you get 16 XLR inputs plus a couple of stereo inputs. The bad news: only two auxes.

The radio station where I do live mixes has one of those. The compression on channels 11-14 is worse than useless. The only control is threshold, & the channels give up their insert to get that! When I use the ProFX22 I bring my own effects rack (8 comps & 4 general effects) & don't use channels 11-14 at all if I can help it.

The preamps don't seem to have anything close to the gain that the knobs indicate. Gain needs to be all the way up with any run-of-the-mill dynamic mic, like a SM57, SM58, etc.

I can usually live with only 2 pre-fader & 1 post-fader (i.e. FX) Auxes for radio mixes (performers usually get the on-air mix anyway & the sets are usually pretty short). For anything else, I'd rather have at least 4 pre- & 2 post-fader Auxes (many mixers let you switch some Auxes to be either pre- or post-fader).

That said, I own a couple of other model Mackie analog mixers myself & I'm pretty happy with them. Lots of good deals around on used ones.

 

[Munjibunga]

The radio station where I do live mixes has one of those. The compression on channels 11-14 is worse than useless. The only control is threshold, & the channels give up their insert to get that! When I use the ProFX22 I bring my own effects rack (8 comps & 4 general effects) & don't use channels 11-14 at all if I can help it.

The preamps don't seem to have anything close to the gain that the knobs indicate. Gain needs to be all the way up with any run-of-the-mill dynamic mic, like a SM57, SM58, etc.

I can usually live with only 2 pre-fader & 1 post-fader (i.e. FX) Auxes for radio mixes (performers usually get the on-air mix anyway & the sets are usually pretty short). For anything else, I'd rather have at least 4 pre- & 2 post-fader Auxes (many mixers let you switch some Auxes to be either pre- or post-fader).

That said, I own a couple of other model Mackie analog mixers myself & I'm pretty happy with them. Lots of good deals around on used ones.

I'm sensing some OE or faulty gear here if you're having to crank the input gains all the way up. I never use the compressors, so I have no idea how well they function, and I don't insert anything because I don't want to lug outboard gear. If you turn the compressor knobs all the way down, they have no effect on the channel's output, so the channels are still usable. Tonight, my acoustic trio played an outdoor gig using A Mackie ProFX16 with Beta 58s (instead of our usual Super 55s), and the input gains were set a little below noon. The channel faders were all set at about unity, as was the main fader. It was mondo loud - we were all going direct into my JBL PRX715 mains and PRX 612 monitors. When we left the stage, I replaced the Betas with SM58s for the next band, and didn't have to boost the gain at all.

If I ever needed more auxes, I'd fire up my Presonus 16.4.2, but it's a lot of board for a trio (plus drummer). I'm happy with my Mackie boards and the pre's are OK, but they don't compare to the ones that were in my former Midas Venice 24, which I sold because it was just too big and heavy. I sure loved that board, though.

 

[FunkySpoo]

Thanks for the info Munji I'll keep all that in mind as I go forward. The spare mixer my guitar player has is a Yamaha MG16/6FX. It worked well enough at rehearsal yesterday so at this point we're going to go with that. That leaves me with a larger budget for a sub. At this point I'm leaning toward the JBL prx718xlf. But I'm still open to suggestions on the sub.

Thanks

 

[Rooster009]

Mixer wise this is what I would do.
Yamaha EMX5016CF 16 channel powered Mixer. I've used it's pretty awesome. A lot of drummers think that they need to mic the whole kit. At your bands level, you really only need a kick drum mic and 1 mic to pickup the snare and hi hat. Everything else will usually carry the room. The yamaha has plenty of great features and plenty of power. If you actually play a outdoor show or a show where you feel it's necessary to fully mic the drums, then I would use the 10 channel mixer that you already have as a sub mixer for the drums and send that signal to the yamaha mixer.