Double Bass Effect of a lighter end-pin on a BSO

[Ortsom]

Please see attached PDF.

 

[Matthew Tucker]

Now repeat that experiment on twenty basses and it might tell you something!

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Now repeat that experiment on twenty basses and it might tell you something!

After years of experimenting with various pins on carved, hybrid and plywood basses I've settled on traditional steel endpins. The Ulsa 6425 which comes with the 5/8" metal tube was the most viable alternative; substituting a maple, walnut, oak dowel, or hickory drumstick. For a couple of years I used turned pins using a cello taper into a matching tapered housing. I have several lengths depending on the situation. Consistently, any of those options yielded a louder, more resonant tone at the expense of low end. The steel pin just has more clarity and a punchier, more extended low end.

Experiments like this are nerdy and of limited value.

 

[Ortsom]

Matthew, Greg,

thank you for reading & for your comments.

Of course I do not have 20 basses, and the other basses that I have are not going to get another endpin. I published this information in a reaction to some other thread, and hoping it could contribute & be beneficial for others, in a positive way. To me, the value of it is that I know the acoustic consequences of changing the endpin in this bass. Others could use such approach to get an objective view on the impact in their case, if so desired. I never claimed this to be a universal truth, and was quite specific about that.

Have objective results on such tests ever been shared?

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

My introduction to this subject came through Chuck Traeger's book. No blind study of end pins has been done, to my knowledge and I don't know that it would be valid. This is a bit like the bridge adjuster discussion IMHO.
These things matter and every decision made in setting up a bass can have an effect. Whether or not that decision results in a desirable outcome is another matter.

 

[Ortsom]

This is a bit like the bridge adjuster discussion IMHO.

Agreed, it is comparable. And, using a similar approach, there I found, for that instrument, lighter = better.

Also agreed, everything matters, some things more than others.

 

[Neil Pye]

Better? By what measure? Surely this is all too subjective to say "better"? The differences in response on those graphs are way too small to be significant

 

[Ortsom]

Neil,
bridge adjusters are another topic (which I regret raising), and you have not seen those graphs. I did that quite a while back, long before I was on TB, but the difference was far more significant. To answer your question: my results for that bass were: lighter = better in the sense of louder, over the main instrument range.

You can easily do the test yourself, to assess the impact on your instrument: just take a fixed bridge, record, clamp a weight on it (on the location of the adjusters), record again & compare. As a clamp just use 2 strips of spruce with bolts through it (just outside the bridge legs), with a total weight equal to the weight gain due to adjusters. One clamp on each side. My conclusion was: lighter = better, but light (alu) adjusters are acceptable wrt the benefits they bring for a jazz bass (life's a compromise); heavy brass ones are a definite no-no for me.

Back to the endpin, my conclusion there too is aligned to what is more or less the norm, I think, yet you are right in saying the difference in the curves is quite tentative. You could also say 'not much difference, all within the noise', and I won't contest that. As stated, I wanted the new pin for other reasons. But acoustically it appears to be no worse, and probably a bit better. (Btw, it's 3min of music 2/3 pizz & 1/3 arco.)

I think quantifying is more reliable & useful than just saying 'Yeah, great! The new one is so much better! You can feel it! And it smells nicer too.' on psychological grounds. If it's there, the LDC should hear it. And if the mic doesn't hear it, the audience won't hear it either. Call it nerdy if you like, but I think that makes sense. YMMV.

 

[Neil Pye]

I wasn't implying nerdiness, I have a fixed wooden endpin for my bass that I use around 50/50 with a 10mm hollow carbon fibre pin. To me, the bass FEELS more secure and speaks better with the more rigid wooden pin. Might be a tad louder too, but any difference in the quality of the sound is minute if it's there at all. What I was questioning is the Traeger idea of "better", as in louder=better. I simply don't buy it. Traeger spent years desperately trying to make basses as loud as possible. Why? Wasted effort in my opinion

 

[Matthew Tucker]

Ortsom, your experiment to objectively assess the impact of a lighter endpin ignores - by your own admission - any differences in playing. It also ignores endpin length and its material, and the different rubber tip. And your graph shows such tiny differences, I'm surprised you can think you can even draw a conclusion "lighter=better" for your own bass! It could be any of the other variables. But hey, if to you it sounds "better" - a subjective term, i think we all agree - I don't have a problem with hearing your opinion. But even though your intention was to add positively to the discussion, and taking into account your disclaimers, I think it is could be a little misleading to present the test in some way as an objective experiment. That was all I was saying.

Likewise, your suggestion above regarding an experiment to assess the effect of different adjusters doesn't take into effect of the position of the adjuster, the amount of contact with the adjuster, the material of the adjuster or threads, the length, or width of the threads, how much wood is removed from the bridge when installing them, or the difference in flexibility due to the added adjusters (in my opinion, a significant element). Even who installed them matters!

So although it may sound like science ... in my opinion, it hardly is. Even if you attach a spectrum analysis.

Remember, everything matters

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

The notion of scientifically documenting these things is a fools errand, IMO. Too many variables.

I use brass adjusters at the shop because that's what the owner likes. He told me that he thinks aluminum 'sounds hollow'. Anytime I've made a bridge for myself or a strictly jazz (pizz) player, I've used aluminum, mainly because that's the conventional choice, but it just seems like aluminum would have less of a muting effect than brass.

However, I'm questioning that thinking. My old flatback has always been a tad bright and intolerant of spirocores. So I switched the adjusters to brass and the tone got darker and the low end became more solid. The bass may have lost some volume but I prefer the change.


Although I agree with some of Traeger's ideas, he gets a bit dogmatic. The longer I do this work, the more I begin to believe that there is just so much that we don't know or possibly understand. There are rules, dogma, tendencies, unintended consequences, variables beyond our control and just plain magic.

So, remain curious with open ears.

 

[Matthew Tucker]

The longer I do this work, the more I begin to believe that there is just so much that we don't know or possibly understand. There are rules, dogma, tendencies, unintended consequences, variables beyond our control and just plain magic.

Yep. And you forgot psychoacoustics!!

 

[james condino]

If you like making and trying out a number of different endpins, then by all means do it. I use them across the spectrum with very different results and I regularly make them out of all kinds of materials- wood, metal, titanium, carbon fiber, et cetera. If I put one on a customer's bass and they are a blue endpin kind of guy, if it is not blue, they will insist that they can hear a difference and demand the blue one be put back on. None will make an old Kay sound like a 250 year old Italian bass. In general, the more responsive and better performing bass you own, the more it will respond to subtle changes. You could mount an outboard motor on many of the cheap imported bass shaped objects and it will still sound like junk, no matter how expensive a motor you mount on it. Good luck with the experiments.

 

[Ortsom]

Neil, sorry the 'nerdy' was not in response to you. I can agree with your "any difference in the quality of the sound is minute, if it's there at all", and 'better' is indeed a subjective term. Particularly if you play amplified, I agree that 'louder' is not necessarily 'better'.

Others: I'll get back later.

 

[Ortsom]

It also ignores endpin length and its material, and the different rubber tip.

I respectfully yet fundamentally disagree with this criticism. I am comparing complete pin A with complete pin B, in exactly the way they are used (& at identical lengths). My 342 word PDF is not an answer to the question 'What is the best endpin; what is the best endpin material; what is the best tip; and what is the best length?', and I never claimed it was that. As stated, I just made the comparison to quantify the acoustic consequences of going from pin A to pin B, so to objectively quantify a weak subjective perception. You seem read more in the PDF than what is actually written. If I wanted to answer the much wider question, then I would need a much wider data set (and the 20 you mentioned earlier might not suffice either), addressing all the degrees of freedom. But I'm not addressing that here; I'm not trying to solve world hunger here either.

And your graph shows such tiny differences, I'm surprised you can think you can even draw a conclusion

The conclusion I draw is quite carefully worded: "In this instrument, a minor increase in the low end is indicated as the result of the lighter end-pin.". Minor differences --> 'minor increase'; quite possibly not statistically significant --> 'indicated' (as opposed to a firm 'is'). Now I fully accept that with these data you may also conclude that 'Within the statistical variation no significant difference is found.', and I admit that I have, to some extent, succumbed to framing. My subjective impression was 'FA difference.. Well, maybe a wee bit in the low', so I liked to see that back in the data. (And also others are selling alternative endpins because of alleged improvements.) What alternative conclusion would you draw?

"lighter=better" for your own bass!

Where did I say that, regarding the end-pin? I didn't. Thinking error. I'm open to criticism on what I say, not on what you think I say.

objective experiment

Well, indeed I do think that if someone buys & installs a new endpin, this is a suitable way to objectively test the acoustic impact thereof. And that is why I shared it (not expecting the Spanish Inquisition to show up). No, it is indeed not the solution to world hunger.

experiment to assess the effect of different adjusters doesn't take into effect of the position of the adjuster

Yes it does. I suggested to clamp the weights at the location of the adjusters, so not for instance at the crest. If you mean the height setting of the adjusters, you are correct, for each height setting you would need another fixed bridge. It only assess the impact of the weight gain due to the adjusters, which I think is the most important aspect, at a fixed given string height.
Most of the other aspects you mention I think are of secondary importance, indeed maybe with the exception of the difference in lateral flexibility (which you can calculate). And indeed, that is not addressed by the clamped weights.

Remember, everything matters

Agreed. So what you do is change 1 aspect while leaving all others unchanged, and assess the impact of that change as best & objective as you can. That's how you learn. One step at the time, and the step is tailored to what you want to know. By saying it's all so complicated & linked & voodoo, so it's impossible to understand, you won't make progress.

a fools errand, IMO

Again, I respectfully disagree. In a complicated situation, take 1 step at the time, calculate (estimate) where you are, and learn as objectively as you can. That is how you get to master the situation, or at least make progress. Voodoo does not necessarily help.

it just seems like aluminum would have less of a muting effect than brass

Is aligned with my experience.

I switched the adjusters to brass and the tone got darker and the low end became more solid. The bass may have lost some volume but I prefer the change.

Again, this sounds eminently sensible to me. Also, placing heavy adjusters below a high-mounted PU may help PU output & character.

So, remain curious with open ears.

Hear hear.

And you forgot psychoacoustics!!

If you feel that's important, please elaborate, from your own experience. Again, outwith my objectives.

trying out a number of different endpins, then by all means do it

Ah well, the one that came with the thing is eminently suitable for hand-to-hand combat, but I found the other one in a box, so I figured: try that...

blue

Forgot that. Personally I like the smell of teak.

sound like a 250 year old Italian bass

Indeed. If it was that easy...

will still sound like junk

Nah, it's not that bad, with enough tlc. And value-for-money-wise the thing scores pretty good, in my opinion. Just some fun.

Thanks.