Effects of Biamping

[Rick Auricchio]

Ernie, it isn't really clear that 12s and 15s are going to really cover different enough ranges to make biamping worthwhile. The 215 cab isn't large enough to really go very deep, and the 212 cab is large so it does go almost as deep as the 215.

Without a crossover, you'd just be running both cabs full-range. Try it and see, but listen in various places in the venue to hear if you're getting any cancellation effects from the different-sized speakers.

 

[Bassmore]

scrotimusprime first off - you guys know what you are talking about.

Last night I reconconfigured my amp setup and it made a world of difference. I pulled the 15 out of my configuration and wired a full biamp setup.

That is, hi's to the 4x10 cab and lows to the 18. World of difference. Now i'm just mucking with the cross over frequency trying to find the sweet spot.

Thanks guys,

Carl

It seems that this might be a good place to post my question.

I think I'm on the right "Bi-Amp" track but wanted to throw it out there for comment.

I'll soon enough be in possesion of my dream rig:

2 x ACOUSTIC B200H Heads
1 x Morley A/B Input Splitter
1 x ACOUSTIC B410 Cab
1 X ACOUSTIC B115 Cab

My goal is to Bi-Amp, Incoming signal is split to two heads. One B200H "High" Head with its pre-amp EQ going to the B410 cab, the second B200H "Low" Head with it's pre-amp EQ going to the B115 (eventually, I hope they come out with an B118). Like the OP, I imagine I'll have to "fiddle about" with the 2 x EQ's to get the right cross-over thing (mid range coverage) going on But I just wanted to make sure I'm on the right track with this set up and if there's any "gotchyas" I might need to be aware of?

I realize I won't be getting the full 400W of power (400 "Old School ACOUSTIC" Watts at that) and it will be somewhere around 280 Watts, but I'm thinkin' that's more than enough for anywhere I'll be playin and my thought was that over time the heads won't be worked so hard.

What do you think?

Play On!

Thanks again,

Bassmore

 

[Bass_Pounder]

It seems that this might be a good place to post my question.

I think I'm on the right "Bi-Amp" track but wanted to throw it out there for comment.

I'll soon enough be in possesion of my dream rig:

2 x ACOUSTIC B200H Heads
1 x Morley A/B Input Splitter
1 x ACOUSTIC B410 Cab
1 X ACOUSTIC B115 Cab

My goal is to Bi-Amp, Incoming signal is split to two heads. One B200H "High" Head with its pre-amp EQ going to the B410 cab, the second B200H "Low" Head with it's pre-amp EQ going to the B115 (eventually, I hope they come out with an B118). Like the OP, I imagine I'll have to "fiddle about" with the 2 x EQ's to get the right cross-over thing (mid range coverage) going on But I just wanted to make sure I'm on the right track with this set up and if there's any "gotchyas" I might need to be aware of?

I realize I won't be getting the full 400W of power (400 "Old School ACOUSTIC" Watts at that) and it will be somewhere around 280 Watts, but I'm thinkin' that's more than enough for anywhere I'll be playin and my thought was that over time the heads won't be worked so hard.

What do you think?

Play On!

Thanks again,

Bassmore

Just playing with each amps "EQ Section" will not give you what you are looking for.

You still need an active crossover

 

[Rick Auricchio]

+1. You would need a true crossover; EQ won't do the job.

And even then, all you will do is reduce the output of each amp, since each amp only works with part of the signal. An oversimplified example: instead of amplifying 100% of a full-range signal, each amp would handle 50% of it. So you still end up with the original 100% when you're done.

Bi-amping allows higher volume with the proper subs, mids, and tops. It also allows the use of smaller amps for mid and top. And you get better response when using specialized speakers.

But just using standard full-range components isn't gonna get you much if anything. Except a hernia.

 

[scrotimusprime]

+1. You would need a true crossover; EQ won't do the job.

But just using standard full-range components isn't gonna get you much if anything. Except a hernia.

I've already had one - not pretty. Thanks to biamping and this thread though I now have one less cab to move around...

 

[nysbob]

Just playing with each amps "EQ Section" will not give you what you are looking for.

You still need an active crossover

And I will respectfully disagree with that, based on 30 years experience with using two amps. You can get very nice results with using two sets of tone controls on different cabs.

You wouldn't want to master a record or mix a tune through it, but you can certainly play a bass through it.

It requires some work and fiddling, but once you have the right components and understand how to use them it can work quite well.

 

[Bassmore]

Alrighty then,

Back step taken.

Thank You. Very very good to know. Damn this place is good! Given the proposed rig that I've described, what would your recommendations be as far as a good cross-over (I'm assuming active, perhaps one of the the Carvin's as I believe was mentioned earlier) for me to go with and how would you suggestion I incorporate that into my 2 headed rig?

Also, just curious, do you know of any threads or the like that give good advice as to how best to use the Active EQ on the bass itself in combination with the amps (pre-amp) EQ in such a way that one is not "going around in EQ circles", if you will?

Many thanks again,

Bassmore

 

[Bass_Pounder]

And I will respectfully disagree with that, based on 30 years experience with using two amps. You can get very nice results with using two sets of tone controls on different cabs.

You wouldn't want to master a record or mix a tune through it, but you can certainly play a bass through it.

It requires some work and fiddling, but once you have the right components and understand how to use them it can work quite well.

I will not disagree with you on this.

However, "using two sets of tone controls on different cabs" is not bi-amping

 

[Bassmore]

I'm two steps back now.

All input much appreciated.

Please continue,

Thanks again,

Bassmore

 

[nysbob]

I will not disagree with you on this.

However, "using two sets of tone controls on different cabs" is not bi-amping

Not technically, but essentially it produces the same result.

I've been in this discussion here before and I think stereo amping is what it was called.

 

[Bassmore]

okay,

So my originally described set up would be considered "stereo ampping" not Bi ampping. One thing I neglected to mention, for what it's worth, is that both of the Acoustic B115 and B410 cabs have tweeters with only an "on/off" button on the back. I'm curious, does that mean that the B200H already has a cross-over of sorts buried within it? And the way to work it is really just fiddle with the EQ's to hear rather than see were the cross-over points occur?

Thanks again,

Bassmore

 

[nysbob]

okay,

So my originally described set up would be considered "stereo ampping" not Bi ampping. One thing I neglected to mention, for what it's worth, is that both of the Acoustic B115 and B410 cabs have tweeters with only an "on/off" button on the back. I'm curious, does that mean that the B200H already has a cross-over of sorts buried within it? And the way to work it is really just fiddle with the EQ's to hear rather than see were the cross-over points occur?

Thanks again,

Bassmore

I don't know for sure on the acoustic cab, but generally a tweet will have some kind of highpass filter to protect it from seeing low frequencies.

I know you have this vision of using two acoustic amps, one for highs and one for lows, but I wouldn't recommend it. Both of those cabs are really bass cabs - and really you could get away with far less speaker and amp for your mids and highs. I'm not saying it won't work, but I think there would be a better & smaller choice for your high end amp.

 

[Stumbo]

okay,
One thing I neglected to mention, for what it's worth, is that both of the Acoustic B115 and B410 cabs have tweeters with only an "on/off" button on the back. Bassmore

I suggest running only one tweeter from the cab that you have on top of your stack.

Whatever you e.q. to the bottom cab probably will be the lows anyway to the tweeter may get in the way.

The other idea that I suggest is to start with the e.q. all the way down and work from there. If you don't have a gig coming up, maybe one of your friends bands needs a rig. Then you can hear it FOH and ring out the tone you like.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

and really you could get away with far less speaker and amp for your mids and highs.

A 50 watt guitar combo would do it.

 

[Bassmore]

nysbob and stumbo,

Thanks very much for the input, very good to know.

nysbob,

I believe you mentioned that you had been playing using a similar set up for 30 or so years. I did see another related thread and you had good input there as well. The stereo chorus thing sounds interesting as chorus is about one of the only effects I'm big on, especially with fretless. I guess I'm curious as to what you are using for the highs (and lows for that matter), amps and cabs? I'm sure over time you had the opportunity to tweak your gear to taste.

Thanks again all,

Bassmore

 

[nysbob]

nysbob and stumbo,

Thanks very much for the input, very good to know.

nysbob,

I believe you mentioned that you had been playing using a similar set up for 30 or so years. I did see another related thread and you had good input there as well. The stereo chorus thing sounds interesting as chorus is about one of the only effects I'm big on, especially with fretless. I guess I'm curious as to what you are using for the highs (and lows for that matter), amps and cabs? I'm sure over time you had the opportunity to tweak your gear to taste.

Thanks again all,

Bassmore

A picture will save time -

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The marshall is 100W > two stock guitar celestions in a sealed box. I used to drag the slant cab around, but for my purposes that was really unneccessary. I love the way a marshall sounds clean & unstressed - think of Hendrix's sound on Little Wing - it's very chimey. I've had that marshall since '78 and it's never been turned up past 2 - it's capable of tearing your head off. I like the celestions because they extremely light and responsive. Bill is absolutely right - a 50W guitar combo would be very adequate.

The low component - mid 70's SVT> 2 JBL spec K145s. This is where all the grunt comes from. Yeah, they're heavy, but how many guys do you know who are using 30 year old drivers on a daily basis? They are built amazingly well.

In the rack is a Boss multi effects unit (SE-70) and pair of ratt distortions so I fuzz either the top or bottom. Signal chain is line into SE-70 with each stereo out going through a ratt and into its respective amp.

I know this rig probably has overlaps and comb filtering issues and is technically incorrect, but it also sounds great and is tough as a tank. I've let scores of openers play through it - you'd have to do something really stupid to hurt it.

 

[watspan]

A picture will save time -

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How do those bottle stay on those shelves behind that rig? glued down?

 

[nysbob]

How do those bottle stay on those shelves behind that rig? glued down?

I would NEVER crank that thing up in the house. My pets would freak out.

 

[Bassmore]

A picture will save time -


I know this rig probably has overlaps and comb filtering issues and is technically incorrect, but it also sounds great and is tough as a tank. I've let scores of openers play through it - you'd have to do something really stupid to hurt it.

nysbob,

WHOA! Awesome rig! Old School Hybrid (guitar and Bass amp) Killer Rig! As part of your quote from above mentions, it SOUNDS as though you've successfully hit the most important aspects. Who really cares so much about the "technicalities" if you will. In a weird way it reminds me of why I bought an 04 Mustang...V8, one of Ford's most successful models, well built, meant to take a beating, looks good, plenty of parts out there when I need them, upgrades aplenty, although I'm modest on that front, gets out of it's own way and because I'm very good to her (God forbid an accident,) hopefully the very last car I'll ever own. I totally plan to drive her smilingly into the dirt! I guess we'll see who goes first. Yeah, she's a Pony with a drinking problem and that's a little tough these days but hey, I mix the good with the bad, right? Not to mention, your rig is probably just as big and may even weigh as much. But that's all Good!

Anyways, I'm very intrigued by your rig. Maybe I'll get stupid lucky and the new Acoustic stuff, that I'm excitedly and very willingly buying into, will be as good from a durability and longevity standpoint as it's ancestors. I'm inclined to think that it will but as with anything else, time tells all. My son, who is growing up nicely and is the resident guitarist at our home has already expressed an interest into plugging into my new Acoustic Bass rig when I finally get it home. It will be interesting to see just how dynamic the B200H's Pre-amp EQ's really are when a guitar gets pushed through them. Who know's I may just be pleasantlyy surprised. If not then I may just venture into guitar amp/bass amp (hybrid) experimentation as you have successfully done. My son recently bought a very nice Bugera 333XL Guitar amp (tubed). It's comparable to a Fender Twin Reverb (120W, 2 x 12's) combo. It's Behringer's (please don't shudder bass folks) lead in to the higher end Guitar tube amp market. A very very impressive piece thus far. Anyways, to make a longer story longer, if I have my facts right here, apparently, the infamous Bootsy Collins is using the Bugera amps in one of his music projects which includes Bucket Head and Les Claypool. It might be interesting to see what he's doing, perhaps something similar to this.

Anyways, thank you for sharing.

Very very intriguing...

Play On!

Bassmore