Egypt

[UncleFluffy]

Immoral.

Interesting. I'd have said that power is amoral, what one does with it may or may not be immoral. Why do you regard (political) power itself as immoral?

 

[onosson]

I'm not so sure. If there wasn't an element of morality somewhere in the mix we would have probably wiped ourselves out completely by now. Gotta keep positive

Oh for sure ... I'm honestly not that negative and cynical, though I might be coming across that way in this thread!

I think morality is "in the mix" for sure ... but it's not really at work in the top layer, nation-to-nation. Hopefully, in a democracy it is there as citizens concerned on a human level with the repercussions of what their government does. And it is there on the "street level" in oppressed societies, as we're seeing...

But I just think we should be realistic and not kid ourselves that any government really "cares" about people who are not it's constituents. Given what a government is, that just doesn't make any sense.

 

[warwick.hoy]

No problem dude, point well-taken!

"Homeland Security" - call it what it really is: Martial Law.

No it's not. Not even close. It is definitely something that we are not used to as a nation though and seems to be in direct conflict to what we were founded upon.

Agreed,..as far as I know Habeus Corpus is still available for American citizens and there aren't any tanks parked outside the local downtown federal building.

 

[aborgman]

Interesting. I'd have said that power is amoral, what one does with it may or may not be immoral. Why do you regard (political) power itself as immoral?

Power is not immoral.

Realpolitik is immoral.

It's hypocrisy at it's finest - We care about human rights, unless it benefits us more not to.

 

[BassyBill]

Immoral.

Hey - morality's all relative and not absolute, remember?

 

[GregC]

Secondly, realpolitik. Politics are and always have been about power. That is not an immoral aberration, that is the definition of what politics is. The entire substance of "democracy" is not to make a country where the people in power are a bunch of saints. The substance of democracy is to create a system where they have some accountability to the people they govern. In international relations, the first responsibility of any government is not and never has been any high-flown ideals of democracy and justice for all, it is to prevent its own people becoming the victims of others' aggression, either by maintaining peace or by forming alliances that will assure success if a conflict does arise. That often means working with nasty characters who have convergent interests, including the likes of Mubarak.

Which sometimes works, and sometimes bites us in the a** down the road.

 

[aborgman]

Hey - morality's all relative and not absolute, remember?

Absolutely.

Which is why it's perfectly possible for realpolitik to be against my morals, but perfectly in line with those of another person.

 

[BassyBill]

Absolutely.

Or relatively.

 

[hrodbert696]

Which sometimes works, and sometimes bites us in the a** down the road.

It does indeed. I never claimed the people who make these policies are all-wise. Just calling for a little perspective and realism.

Realpolitik is neither immoral or amoral. It means leaders taking the responsibility to make the best decisions they can with the realities they have to work with, rather than pursuing quixotic crusades on the basis of ideology (including good, upright democratic ideology) that will end up doing more harm than good to actual people.

 

[Balog]

Now THAT is a "top turd on the dungpile" assertion if I've ever seen one.

Humans are imperfect creatures and any political construct will by necessity be equally imperfect. However, I feel that being the most benevolent / least harmful major world power in the history of the world is indeed something to regard with pride.

 

[onosson]

I feel that being the most benevolent / least harmful major world power in the history of the world is indeed something to regard with pride.

That's quite a statement... I wonder, on what basis does one come to such a conclusion?

 

[Balog]

That's quite a statement... I wonder, on what basis does one come to such a conclusion?

Aside from perhaps the British Empire, what major world power in history has outlawed slavery, recognized women as equal citizens, made no distinction in regards to race religion etc in regards to citizenship and rights, conquered hostile foreign nations then relinquished control of them, and generally abused human rights the least? Hint: the majority of historic world powers have not even recognized the concept of "human rights."

 

[onosson]

You've left out a few things such as distributing massive amounts of deadly weapons (or funding for the same) around the world... propping up "friendly" dictatorships... just a couple things that the protests in Egypt would seem to be directly addressing.

I'm not arguing that the U.S. is the worst offender in history, but I certainly wouldn't be professing it to be the most benevolent major power in history either... Most likely it's somewhere in the middle.

 

[Relic]

You've left out a few things such as distributing massive amounts of deadly weapons (or funding for the same) around the world... propping up "friendly" dictatorships... just a couple things that the protests in Egypt would seem to be directly addressing.

I'm not arguing that the U.S. is the worst offender in history, but I certainly wouldn't be professing it to be the most benevolent major power in history either... Most likely it's somewhere in the middle.

For the sake of argument - name a better one?

 

[warwick.hoy]

For the sake of argument - name a better one?

Antarctica.

EDIT: By which I mean I could name any country and be countered with evidence of a sordid past. And yes I realize Antarctica isn't a country.

 

[onosson]

For the sake of argument - name a better one?

I think before that we need to have some kind of agreement on what we mean by "major power".

But I also know that many Americans IME (and half my family are Americans btw) are brought up with a great deal of propaganda about their own country. If we're going to have a decent discussion let's at least start with the premise that "Maybe, just maybe, my own country is not the greatest in the history of the world."

 

[MatticusMania]

I do think that that's a very narrow and near "conspiracy theory" view on politics in general.

As one should look at politics in general. Youve got to remember that everything we're told is 'for the good of the country' and yadda yadda, but gov likes to tell a lot of lies, also 'for the good of the country'. You can't help but look at certain situation and wonder what is really going on and what we arent being told.

 

[MatticusMania]

But I also know that many Americans IME (and half my family are Americans btw) are brought up with a great deal of propaganda about their own country. If we're going to have a decent discussion let's at least start with the premise that "Maybe, just maybe, my own country is not the greatest in the history of the world."

As are many denizens of any other country/political machine for that matter.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Aside from perhaps the British Empire, what major world power in history has outlawed slavery, recognized women as equal citizens, made no distinction in regards to race religion etc in regards to citizenship and rights, conquered hostile foreign nations then relinquished control of them, and generally abused human rights the least? Hint: the majority of historic world powers have not even recognized the concept of "human rights."

Another thing to take into account, most superpowers existed and disappeared long before America was America as we know it today.

But one part you mentioned, that I would like to highlight:

"conquered hostile foreign nations then relinquished control of them"

What about America itself? Is that not a conquered nation?

This "we iz da bestest" attitude is on of the reasons why Americans are generalised as being notoriously obnoxious.

 

[Relic]

I think before that we need to have some kind of agreement on what we mean by "major power".

But I also know that many Americans IME (and half my family are Americans btw) are brought up with a great deal of propaganda about their own country. If we're going to have a decent discussion let's at least start with the premise that "Maybe, just maybe, my own country is not the greatest in the history of the world."

Well, I lived abroad for a few years and I'm well aware of the American "hyper-patriotism" that we're renowned for But my point personally, is that I've also conversely seen those who love love love love to villainize the US, it's almost a sport in some places - and a lot of times it's not really based on logic but rather prejudice, emotion, and misconception.
The USA is far from a perfect country, and we've done things in the past that I'm not very proud of as an American.... but we've also time and time again been in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position in world events, and that's killing us as far as reputation goes.
We've sold weapons abroad, often in response to our rivals doing the same, we've propped up dictators but those same dictators were allied with us against "bigger and badder" enemies.. I can go on and on...
just suffice to say we 'aint perfect, and have many faults but we are not the world's boogeyman that we're made out to be and as a major power, we've accomplished a lot of great things.
I say this as we fade and China grows...