Double Bass Empress ParaEq and Fdeck or Fishman Platinum Pro

[jdh3000]

I am considering getting n Fdeck hpf pre. I already have the Empress ParaEq... I was thinking going from the piezo to the fdeck would fix the impedence matching, along with the hpf and the phase switch.

I was just wondering if this setup would give me the same control and flexibility as the Fishman platinum pro, minus the compressor and DI. It would definitely be more affordable.

Thank you!

 

[Ric Vice]

Well,
They're all great boxes, You'll have to check with FDeck to see how the HPF/PRE will operate in front of the Empress Para EQ DI, which is no longer available new, as it was discontinued. I know
several players who just use the Empress as their pre amp directly into the amp with great results. Just my take.

 

[jdh3000]

Well,
They're all great boxes, You'll have to check with FDeck to see how the HPF/PRE will operate in front of the Empress Para EQ DI, which is no longer available new, as it was discontinued. I know
several players who just use the Empress as their pre amp directly into the amp with great results. Just my take.

Yea, glad I got my paraeq when I did.
I'll check with them before I get it, thanks!

 

[Wasnex]

I am considering getting n Fdeck hpf pre. I already have the Empress ParaEq... I was thinking going from the piezo to the fdeck would fix the impedence matching, along with the hpf and the phase switch.

I was just wondering if this setup would give me the same control and flexibility as the Fishman platinum pro, minus the compressor and DI. It would definitely be more affordable.

Thank you!

I don't think it's really impedance matching. A piezo appears as sort of an RC network. The amount of internal capacitance (C) in the pickup element varies with the size/construction. The capacitance in the pickup element interacts with the input impedance of the load to form a high pass filter (HPF). By increasing the input impedance of the load, you push the knee/breakpoint of the HPF to a lower frequency, thus extending the low frequency response I believe there is also some smoothing in the higher range of the pickup's response.

If the load impedance is too high, my understanding is the pickup can become underdamped which increases the tendency for the signal to ring. Also extending the low frequency response too far is not necessarily a good thing.


The V7 (white script) Empress ParaEQ had 1M input impedance. This is generally considered the minimum load for an unbuffered piezo pickup. The V6 (black script) ParaEQ lists input impedance of 500K. Depending on your pickup, 500K may actually be fine.

I believe the ideal impedance for a piezo typically falls somewhere between 1M and 5M. 10M can be a bit too high for some piezos, but some benefit from even more impedance. As I inferred earlier, it depends on which pickup you are using. AFAIK the Fdeck HPF and Fishman Platinum Pro have 10M input impedance.

I believe the gain staging of both the Empress ParaEQ and the Fdeck HPF can be configured so they will work well together.

 

[jdh3000]

I don't think it's really impedance matching. A piezo appears as sort of an RC network. The amount of internal capacitance (C) in the pickup element varies with the size/construction. The capacitance in the pickup element interacts with the input impedance of the load to form a high pass filter (HPF). By increasing the input impedance of the load, you push the knee/breakpoint of the HPF to a lower frequency, thus extending the low frequency response I believe there is also some smoothing in the higher range of the pickup's response.

If the load impedance is too high, my understanding is the pickup can become underdamped which increases the tendency for the signal to ring. Also extending the low frequency response too far is not necessarily a good thing.


The V7 (white script) Empress ParaEQ had 1M input impedance. This is generally considered the minimum load for an unbuffered piezo pickup. The V6 (black script) ParaEQ lists input impedance of 500K. Depending on your pickup, 500K may actually be fine.

I believe the ideal impedance for a piezo typically falls somewhere between 1M and 5M. 10M can be a bit too high for some piezos, but some benefit from even more impedance. As I inferred earlier, it depends on which pickup you are using. AFAIK the Fdeck HPF and Fishman Platinum Pro have 10M input impedance.

I believe the gain staging of both the Empress ParaEQ and the Fdeck HPF can be configured so they will work well together.

That's very helpful! I have tried funning the Realist pickup through the paraeq and it wasn't sounding right, so I thought the impedence was wrong... but now that you mention it, I may have had the gain wrong.

Thanks!

 

[Wasnex]

That's very helpful! I have tried funning the Realist pickup through the paraeq and it wasn't sounding right, so I thought the impedence was wrong... but now that you mention it, I may have had the gain wrong.

Thanks!

Does your ParaEQ have white script or black.
1M input impedance

500K input impedance

What sort of problem are you having?

 

[jdh3000]

It's the black one.... It just didn't sound quite right, some kind of weird overtones. Nothing extreme but noticble.
I ran the upright through my Le Bass tube pre with a tech 21 q strip that I use for my BG and it sounded great.
I'd be nice if I could share that setup with my DB, but it'd never be eq'd the same... so I'm trying to set up something small to use alomg side it.
Plus wgen I play a gig with just the upright, I wouldn't want to drag my BG pedalboard to it. If I had the money I'd just get another set of those.

 

[Wasnex]

It's the black one.... It just didn't sound quite right, some kind of weird overtones. Nothing extreme but noticble.
I ran the upright through my Le Bass tube pre with a tech 21 q strip that I use for my BG and it sounded great.
I'd be nice if I could share that setup with my DB, but it'd never be eq'd the same... so I'm trying to set up something small to use alomg side it.
Plus wgen I play a gig with just the upright, I wouldn't want to drag my BG pedalboard to it. If I had the money I'd just get another set of those.

The 500K input impedance on the V6 ParaEQ could definitely be a factor.

I believe the Le Bass input impedance is 1M for the input and 2.2M for the effects return.

The input impedance for the QStrip is 4.7M.

The QStrip into the ParaEQ should be a very powerful and flexible setup for upright bass.

 

[Ryan in PDX]

I am considering getting n Fdeck hpf pre. I already have the Empress ParaEq... I was thinking going from the piezo to the fdeck would fix the impedence matching, along with the hpf and the phase switch.

Yes. My Full Circle pickup loves the FDeck's 10M input impedance -- not surprising, as Fishman's preamps have a 10M input impedance. Not all pickups are designed exactly the same, and not all basses will sound the same, but the FDeck is a safe bet for most piezos.

I was just wondering if this setup would give me the same control and flexibility as the Fishman platinum pro, minus the compressor and DI. It would definitely be more affordable.

Yes. Your idea is totally feasible. I have followed my FDeck with a Boss EQ pedal a few times, and it works great.

 

[Ric Vice]

My concern is that I know for a fact you cannot insert the FDeck HPF Buffer Preamp into the effects loop of an amplifier because that defeats the 10 Meg Ohm impedance loading. The HPF needs to placed in the signal chain before the amps 1/4” input. Whether or not you can put the Empress EQ before the HPF and still maintain the 10 Meg Impedance Buffer I don’t know. Double MIDI will likely be able to figure that out.

 

[Ryan in PDX]

My concern is that I know for a fact you cannot insert the FDeck HPF Buffer Preamp into the effects loop of an amplifier because that defeats the 10 Meg Ohm impedance loading. The HPF needs to placed in the signal chain before the amps 1/4” input. Whether or not you can put the Empress EQ before the HPF and still maintain the 10 Meg Impedance Buffer I don’t know. Double MIDI will likely be able to figure that out.

I see your concern. Placing the fdeck anywhere other than first in line would indeed eliminate the benefit of the high-impedance buffer. Re-reading the OP, my impression is that he's planning to put the FDeck first, so he'll be all set.

 

[bassically_eli]

It's the black one.... It just didn't sound quite right, some kind of weird overtones. Nothing extreme but noticble.
I ran the upright through my Le Bass tube pre with a tech 21 q strip that I use for my BG and it sounded great.
I'd be nice if I could share that setup with my DB, but it'd never be eq'd the same... so I'm trying to set up something small to use alomg side it.
Plus wgen I play a gig with just the upright, I wouldn't want to drag my BG pedalboard to it. If I had the money I'd just get another set of those.

Have you considered just switching the Q-strip and the Empress Para EQ? The Q-strip should work quite nicely with your piezo pickup and upright, and the Empress would still give you a very capable EQ for your pedal board. The downsides: (1) no DI on the Empress, idk if you use that, and (2) that doesn't give you a phase switch for upright like you get with the Fishman or FDeck's device.

 

[bassically_eli]

Whether or not you can put the Empress EQ before the HPF and still maintain the 10 Meg Impedance Buffer I don’t know.

No.

Placing the fdeck anywhere other than first in line would indeed eliminate the benefit of the high-impedance buffer.

This.

 

[jdh3000]

The 500K input impedance on the V6 ParaEQ could definitely be a factor.

I believe the Le Bass input impedance is 1M for the input and 2.2M for the effects return.

The input impedance for the QStrip is 4.7M.

The QStrip into the ParaEQ should be a very powerful and flexible setup for upright bass.

Thank you!

Have you considered just switching the Q-strip and the Empress Para EQ? The Q-strip should work quite nicely with your piezo pickup and upright, and the Empress would still give you a very capable EQ for your pedal board. The downsides: (1) no DI on the Empress, idk if you use that, and (2) that doesn't give you a phase switch for upright like you get with the Fishman or FDeck's device.

That would would except for what you mentioned. The Le Bass has a di but I would have to go through the effects loop with the empress to get that benefit, pkus no hpf.

If the q strip did have a phase switch I'd just get another one.

Thanks!

 

[Earl]

That's very helpful! I have tried funning the Realist pickup through the paraeq and it wasn't sounding right, so I thought the impedence was wrong... but now that you mention it, I may have had the gain wrong.

Thanks!

It doesn't

That's very helpful! I have tried funning the Realist pickup through the paraeq and it wasn't sounding right, so I thought the impedence was wrong... but now that you mention it, I may have had the gain wrong.

Thanks!

It does not like to be funned

 

[Wasnex]

Thank you!


That would would except for what you mentioned. The Le Bass has a di but I would have to go through the effects loop with the empress to get that benefit, pkus no hpf.

If the q strip did have a phase switch I'd just get another one.

Thanks!

IMHO if you already own a QSTrip and a ParaEQ, put the QStrip first. While a phase/polarity switch can be beneficial, it's not essential IMHO.

Consider the bass, pickup, amp, and speaker to be a system. Room acoustics form a feedback loop in the system between the bass and the speaker. As you turn up the volume, the feedback loop becomes stronger. There is actually positive and negative feedback, because some frequencies come together in phase and add, and some come together out of phase and cancel. FYI this is called comb filtering. If the gain is turned up enough, the peaked frequencies can break over into feedback.

There are also mechanical resonances in the system. As you put energy into the system these mechanical resonances are stimulated. As you turn up the gain, the resonances tend to become more severe.

Worst case is when one of the peaks from comb filtering overlays frequency of one of the resonant peaks. The two peaks sum and become even bigger.

While I agree that a phase/polarity switch can be useful they really don't fix the problem, they just shift the frequencies of the peaks and dips that are caused by comb filtering that results. The idea is you shift a comb filter peak away from a mechanical or acoustic resonance. Or perhaps one of the comb filter dips is moved over the mechanical or acoustic resonance.

Physically moving your bass or amp can frequency produce the same desirable results. Of course flipping a switch is way easier.

Also you mention you would need to run the ParaEQ in the loop of your Le Bass to get the benefits. This not necessarily true. The sound should be processed separately for location and intended use. If you are using a stage amp, use the ParaEQ as a utility EQ to fix your stage sound. If you are sending a separate signal to FOH, the settings you use to correct feedback between you bass and amp are likely to be totally wrong for any feedback problems that occur between your bass and the PA. This is because their are different amounts of propagation delay between your bass and different sound sources. My point is it may actually be better to run the ParaEQ after the Le Bass, rather than in the effects loop.

Ideally when I tune a PA, I ring out the Left main, Right main, Front Fills, Subs, and each monitor system separately. This mitigates the problems that are unique to each system. After this is done, I ring the entire system. Sometimes it's necessary to dip a few extra frequencies, but usually not many.

 

[jdh3000]

IMHO if you already own a QSTrip and a ParaEQ, put the QStrip first. While a phase/polarity switch can be beneficial, it's not essential IMHO.

Consider the bass, pickup, amp, and speaker to be a system. Room acoustics form a feedback loop in the system between the bass and the speaker. As you turn up the volume, the feedback loop becomes stronger. There is actually positive and negative feedback, because some frequencies come together in phase and add, and some come together out of phase and cancel. FYI this is called comb filtering. If the gain is turned up enough, the peaked frequencies can break over into feedback.

There are also mechanical resonances in the system. As you put energy into the system these mechanical resonances are stimulated. As you turn up the gain, the resonances tend to become more severe.

Worst case is when one of the peaks from comb filtering overlays frequency of one of the resonant peaks. The two peaks sum and become even bigger.

While I agree that a phase/polarity switch can be useful they really don't fix the problem, they just shift the frequencies of the peaks and dips that are caused by comb filtering that results. The idea is you shift a comb filter peak away from a mechanical or acoustic resonance. Or perhaps one of the comb filter dips is moved over the mechanical or acoustic resonance.

Physically moving your bass or amp can frequency produce the same desirable results. Of course flipping a switch is way easier.

Also you mention you would need to run the ParaEQ in the loop of your Le Bass to get the benefits. This not necessarily true. The sound should be processed separately for location and intended use. If you are using a stage amp, use the ParaEQ as a utility EQ to fix your stage sound. If you are sending a separate signal to FOH, the settings you use to correct feedback between you bass and amp are likely to be totally wrong for any feedback problems that occur between your bass and the PA. This is because their are different amounts of propagation delay between your bass and different sound sources. My point is it may actually be better to run the ParaEQ after the Le Bass, rather than in the effects loop.

Ideally when I tune a PA, I ring out the Left main, Right main, Front Fills, Subs, and each monitor system separately. This mitigates the problems that are unique to each system. After this is done, I ring the entire system. Sometimes it's necessary to dip a few extra frequencies, but usually not many.

This is a weath of information, I truly appreciate it!

When I tried the upright running through my pedalboard, at that time I had an A/B pedal right before the Le Bass and q strip(which I had been using to route in my EUB(running through a Zoom A3, mainly for the feedback control)

Doing it this way I could set the volume of the EUB to match my electric bass, tune separately, and make minor eq adjustments.

Oddly I never had to tweak the eq on the zoom pedal much, if at all, to offset anything that the q strip was doing for the BG... BG went through a compressor then tied in at the A/B. Both instruments went the yhe Le Bass and the q strip, out to the amp and also DI to the mix.

I don't really count on this being the case with the double bass. I'm thinking that to be able to get a good sound I'm going to have to eq(if at all) separately, and running the DB through the same mix as the BG won't pan out.

It would be a great setup if I could do that somehow and fix the tube pre and q strip on the pedalboard to where they could both be removed at once to carry on DB only gigs.

I'm considering every bit of information I can to make this work. I hate getting to a gig and running into too many unforseen problems, at least having tried to prepare for some of them.

Thank you so much for all of your great advice!

 

[Wasnex]

This is a weath of information, I truly appreciate it!

When I tried the upright running through my pedalboard, at that time I had an A/B pedal right before the Le Bass and q strip(which I had been using to route in my EUB(running through a Zoom A3, mainly for the feedback control)

Doing it this way I could set the volume of the EUB to match my electric bass, tune separately, and make minor eq adjustments.

Oddly I never had to tweak the eq on the zoom pedal much, if at all, to offset anything that the q strip was doing for the BG... BG went through a compressor then tied in at the A/B. Both instruments went the yhe Le Bass and the q strip, out to the amp and also DI to the mix.

I don't really count on this being the case with the double bass. I'm thinking that to be able to get a good sound I'm going to have to eq(if at all) separately, and running the DB through the same mix as the BG won't pan out.

It would be a great setup if I could do that somehow and fix the tube pre and q strip on the pedalboard to where they could both be removed at once to carry on DB only gigs.

I'm considering every bit of information I can to make this work. I hate getting to a gig and running into too many unforseen problems, at least having tried to prepare for some of them.

Thank you so much for all of your great advice!

I do agree that ideally you want a set of tone controls for each bass. The upright will also benefit from notch filters, so a third utility EQ will be helpful.


Use the tone controls to get a bassic sound for each instrument, and use the notch filters to tame the undesired resonances of the upright. In many instances, it will be best if the notch filter are after the DI send. However if the bass has a nasty mechanical resonance, it may be beneficial to notch it out before the DI.

The ideal solution is situational.

The Qstrip circuitry is bypassed with its footswitch. You could use an ABY on the input of the Qstrip. In one position the upright bass is connected so it sees the 4.7M input impedance of the Qstrrip. Engage the Qstrip and get your basic upright tone with wideband controls. Use the ParaEQ to notch feedback problem between your upright and amp.

Use one of your other devices for gain and tone control of your bass guitar. This will go on the other input of the ABY. When you switch to BG toggle the ABY and the switch the Qstrip off. I doubt the notch filters will cause too much damage to your BG tone. But if they do, then you have a third switch to toggle.

Use the XLR on the Qstrip as the DI.

 

[jdh3000]

The ideal solution is situational.

The Qstrip circuitry is bypassed with its footswitch. You could use an ABY on the input of the Qstrip. In one position the upright bass is connected so it sees the 4.7M input impedance of the Qstrrip. Engage the Qstrip and get your basic upright tone with wideband controls. Use the ParaEQ to notch feedback problem between your upright and amp.

Use one of your other devices for gain and tone control of your bass guitar. This will go on the other input of the ABY. When you switch to BG toggle the ABY and the switch the Qstrip off. I doubt the notch filters will cause too much damage to your BG tone. But if they do, then you have a third switch to toggle.

Use the XLR on the Qstrip as the DI.

This is excellent, and I didn't think about bypassing the q strip... I've just always left it on for everything.

I'll give that a try...thank you!

 

[bobsax]

Gotta say a lot of this electronic/impedance talk is over my head…I have a new Fishman Full Circle on one upright and it has a really strong sound. My other upright has an old Realist and it’s a very weak signal. Do you think this is an impedance thing? I’ve heard that Realist’s just wear out.
Also I originally had the Fishman BP 100 and it was just terrible horrible sound nothing but string noise… I exchanged it for the full circle and everything was good.

so nobody’s talking about the PLATINUM PRO ? It would be nice to have an inline Tuner