Entwistle's Left Hand Technique

[rorymc-c]

Watching this video of John Entwistle and really focusing on his left hand. Does anyone else do what he does with his left hand? It looks like his ring finger and pinky are almost glued together? Does this have any benefit to playing? After trying it, it just seems awkward and unnatural.

 

[pravus]

He throws his thumb over the neck a lot. That's a huge technique faux pas. How did this guy get famous? Haha.

Seriously when I play in this style (thumb-over blues is what I call it) the ability to clamp down with my pinky and ring finger adds a lot of support to the playing position without using a lot of energy. It's also just a natural playing position based on the style of music for my hand. I don't know if Entwistle views it the same but that's my experience anyway.

You say it seems unnatural but I'm wondering if you are getting your hand angle proper with respect to the neck. It's a more slanted and relaxed style which should naturally land your ring and pinky fingers virtually on top of one another. You should be able to just place your hand on the neck and your pinky will rest on the same fret as the ring finger but a string lower. Again, that's at least what works for my hand. I use this a lot when playing Guns 'N' Roses covers as well as anything that has that bluesy-rock style.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Great technique, its called Simandl and is a Double bass technique to allow the little finger to be supported by the ring finger and vice verca.
Thumb over the top means his wrist is straighter so all is great there. His bass has a great design feature where the top bout extends up and past his elbow line, as explores design, so he can rest his whole plucking hand forearm in line with his wrist to help keep that straighter.

There is nothing wrong with any of his technique...it is all correct for what he is doing.

 

[Mushroo]

A couple of comments,

1. Very few bass players prior to the 1980's played "one finger per fret" with their fingers stretched wide like spiders. That technique is a modern invention by 1980's guitar teachers who also taught a little bass. Entwistle didn't even use the "spider" hand position when he played "Boris the Spider," ha!
2. The "thumb over the neck" technique may look odd, but it serves an important purpose: It mutes the E string from ringing out when it is not being played. This might not be important for those of us practicing in our bedrooms, but if you are going to play loud stadium gigs (like the Who) it is absolutely essential to have a good muting system for the E string. (Of course, there are other ways to mute the E string, like using the right-hand thumb.)

Put these two techniques together, and it allowed Entwistle to play cleanly-executed bass lines, without unwanted strings ringing out and other sloppiness. Is his technique "perfect"? Probably not. If he were my student, would I give him some tips for improvement? Probably I would. But he's a pretty darn good bass player. He could have taught me a lot more about technique than I could have taught him.

 

[JustForSport]

With the neck near 45 degrees up, and about 30 degrees outward, it helps straight wrist alignment as well.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

A couple of comments,

1. Very few bass players prior to the 1980's played "one finger per fret" with their fingers stretched wide like spiders. That technique is a modern invention by 1980's guitar teachers who also taught a little bass. Entwistle didn't even use the "spider" hand position when he played "Boris the Spider," ha!
2. 

Not really true, many players, myself included, were taught one finger per fret, but we never called it that, we called it playing.
One finger per fret, like tabs, was popularised with the advent of video and magazine lessons.
Then the techniques magazines with free CD took over, now we have You Tube, all offering buzz words and techniques to play in order to get your money.

As I said I was taught it, and in the 60s/70s, and just using all your fingers was called playing, but agreed on the rest of you post as it has resonance with me with guitarists acting as music teachers out of the back of music shops......guitar players teaching bass guitar brought as much good as they did bad, after all it is a bass guitar....the word being guitar as far as technique is involved.
Good music lessons is encouraging imagination and creativity, the instrument, whatever one you choose, is just the outlet.

 

[AMOlson]

Heh. Yes, well, Pasi Kauppinen of Sonata Arctica actually frets the B string with his thumb. I saw that and was stunned. Whatever ... at that point, if you're making a living with your playing, ok. But then he's a big guy. Interesting about muting with the thumb. I've done that quite a bit, especially on my five string but also on my fours. It's just a lot more convenient sometimes if I'm off on the other side of the fret board.

Interesting how different people come up with techniques.

 

[Orangeclawhammr]

He throws his thumb over the neck a lot. That's a huge technique faux pas. How did this guy get famous? Haha.

I think he got famous because of his French horn technique.

 

[iammr2]

A couple of comments,

1. ...
2. The "thumb over the neck" technique may look odd, but it serves an important purpose: It mutes the E string from ringing out when it is not being played. This might not be important for those of us practicing in our bedrooms, but if you are going to play loud stadium gigs (like the Who) it is absolutely essential to have a good muting system for the E string. (Of course, there are other ways to mute the E string, like using the right-hand thumb.)

Put these two techniques together, and it allowed Entwistle to play cleanly-executed bass lines, without unwanted strings ringing out and other sloppiness. Is his technique "perfect"? Probably not. If he were my student, would I give him some tips for improvement? Probably I would. But he's a pretty darn good bass player. He could have taught me a lot more about technique than I could have taught him.

Interesting. Never heard this before. I've heard of more real bass guitar teachers(not guitar players teaching bass) that keep a ruler close by to whack your thumb when it comes out from behind the neck. Your thumb is supposed to be behind the neck, anchoring and acting as a pivot for the hand. That he plays so well with his thumb over the neck, he's the Ox, who played for a living. Dude was huge and had hands that match. Bet he practiced some too.

 

[1stnamebassist]

A couple of comments,

1. Very few bass players prior to the 1980's played "one finger per fret" with their fingers stretched wide like spiders. That technique is a modern invention by 1980's guitar teachers who also taught a little bass. Entwistle didn't even use the "spider" hand position when he played "Boris the Spider," ha!
2. The "thumb over the neck" technique may look odd, but it serves an important purpose: It mutes the E string from ringing out when it is not being played. This might not be important for those of us practicing in our bedrooms, but if you are going to play loud stadium gigs (like the Who) it is absolutely essential to have a good muting system for the E string. (Of course, there are other ways to mute the E string, like using the right-hand thumb.)

Put these two techniques together, and it allowed Entwistle to play cleanly-executed bass lines, without unwanted strings ringing out and other sloppiness. Is his technique "perfect"? Probably not. If he were my student, would I give him some tips for improvement? Probably I would. But he's a pretty darn good bass player. He could have taught me a lot more about technique than I could have taught him.

When I started playing in 1973, 1 finger per fret was pretty standard with all the bass instruction books of that period including the Mel Bay books that I used with lessons. Like Fergie said above it wasn't called that it just was how it was taught. When I tried Simandl it felt ridiculous as it still does to me for the most part. I usually use my third finger instead of my pinky because it felt natural and normal to me and hasn't caused any problems yet. Now when I try the Simandl method it causes me pain in the side of my hand where I broke it many years ago being overzealous in my martial arts instruction. As far as thumb over the neck, that's for me a recent thing since I started using a pick quite a bit. I mentioned this in another thread that Fergie had started a couple days ago. I find myself muting the E and A strings with my thumb, and I wasn't making an effort to do it. I didn't even realize it, I just happened to make the observation while I was playing! Works really well for me anyway!

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Thumb over the top to play or mute a string is called a pistol grip or pistol hold.
A guitarist has options when playing an F chord, one is a standard Barre chord, but that drops the wrist into a very weak position with a bend in it.
A pistol chord F uses the same notes, but has the wrist straighter so the thumb comes over the top to fret the F.
This shape has no real wrist bend, if you are a gutar player you will already know the benifit of learning pistol grip chords, especially of you finger pick.

So again we see a valid guitar technique applies to bass guitar, i use my thumb to fret notes and it has never been an issue for me, but some basses make it easier to do.
As with anything practice makes it feel more natural, but if you have no use for it then you will never develop it....after all if you can play an F it does not matter how you do it...an F is an F.

 

[fearceol]

That he plays so well with his thumb over the neck, he's the Ox, who played for a living.

Here is someone else who made a living out of playing with the thumb over the top of the neck.

 

[neckdive]

Another big name thumb-over guy, one of my favorite bassists, Mr. Chuck Rainey.

 

[iammr2]

So we're now gonna post picks of pro's using "right" and "wrong" techniques? It's whatever works for you.

Like 1stnamebassist, we were always taught thumb behind the neck for hand and wrist health. There are great players using both methods. It's your choice. You've got to remember that the guys pictured above also started playing and making a living long before anyone knew about the mechanics of hands and wrists.

I've played with some good guitar players who fretted the top string or two. Seen a bassist do it to. for the guitarist it seemed useful. For the bassist, not really, just a show tool. YMMV. Always good to have another tool in your toolbag. Never heard it called pistol grip or pistol chord so I Googled that. Nothing.

Pinky and ring finger together is Simandl technique. It's from upright bass to overcome weakness of the pinky and lack of dexterity of the ring finger. The pinky and the ring fingers share tendons where the other fingers have their own.

Anyways...

 

[Bob_Ross]

So we're now gonna post picks of pro's using "right" and "wrong" techniques? It's whatever works for you.

QFT.

Some of my favorite bass players have the worst technique from a strict, pedantic "right/wrong" point of view. And some of them have impecible, textbook technique. Clearly there is no direct correlation between one's technique and one's musicality or creativity or ability to play compelling basslines.

we were always taught thumb behind the neck for hand and wrist health.

Yep, plus thumb-over-the-top restricts your reach, making it more difficult to execute wide interval stretches.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

"Right and wrong Technique" now that is a modern phenomenon.....good and bad technique was what i grew up with.
We liven an age of visuals, music just happens to be aural, not visual.

Now thumb over the top is wrong? I challenge anyone to listen to a recording and tell me if they have their thumb over the top?
For that matter whether they use their thumb, or one finger, or two fingers strictly alternating.
What about a three finger technique?
Listen to that recording and tell me they are using floating thumb, or the bass neck is at an angle, or their amp is dialed in to these settings, or they are using Stainless steel strings, or flats over round wounds.

The formative years of playing is about using our ears not our eyes.
Youtube, or a video, or a picture book, are all distracting from using our ears to learn music.
The hard part today is making students understand all this, their lives have to many distractions that take them away from learning to listen to music.

I grew up with records, so i listened and learned, i worked out how to play what i was hearing, my tutors worried about my techniques......never me.
The only visuals i had was the music i read or the text books i was given to read by my tutors.
My tutors instilled good habits, and some bad ones i may add, and over the years after i was long finished with their input i worked out what worked for me and what did not, what i do want in my playing and what i do not......and even after 45+ years of playing i am still working out what i want and what i do not in a technique to deal whith what i have to play.....not what it may look like compared to others.