Next rehearsal I am going to run my UL310 with my Bag End s15d powered by my Carvin B800 and see how that sounds.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Epifani UL-410 VS UL2-310
- Thread starter SirFunk
- Start date
Ken
As you know i had problems with my UL212 recently (should be all sorted by the end of this week). It turns out i had Eminence drivers in it although it was a series 1 cab. At the moment i now have one B&C in it and am waiting on the other to get here.
Running the cab with just one of each (at a time) i can hear a slight difference and i agree with your findings about the different voicing of the different drivers. I felt the Eminence drivers packed a lot of low mid but seemed to over power the sound a bit, making the cab, to my ears, a bit muddy and very thick sounding. when i put the B&C in it sounded clearer and closer to my UL115. more definition in the notes but still with a nice solid low end on my B string.
Of course these are untrained ears but im actually glad im getting the chance to swap the drivers out.
Only downside seems to be the B&C are heavier but again, with my concerns about the cab moving on stage (not that this one has yet) im happy to gain a bit of weight.
whether its a good or bad thing that Epifani are using different drivers i feel that the Epifani reputation has been built on the Series 1 cabs so im glad thats what ill end up with.
Thanks for that info. I love the open tone and upper mid definition of the B&C drivers. I'm sure the difference in weight of the B&C and Eminence will not be noticable once you are all done. I think you ended up with a better cab than you would have had. It's a bummer you had that problem. The good news is that you rarely hear of the need for service with the Epi cabs, even though a huge number of them have been sold. So, I think you just got a bad driver, and should be good to go when your new B&C arrives.
Thanks Ken.
The only thing that worries me now is i feel i have a cab the I put together. and so anything can go wrong now ;-)
Im still trying to work out how to wire the drivers in. Nick sent me some cables with connectors on them but im not sure how to use them. I know i can just cut the ends off and solder them on as a last result.
Really looking forward to our mini tour of holiday camps next month (the reason i got this cab) as we wont have full PA support although i guess we will put as much as we can through the house vocal PA's, fed from our desk. looking forward to filling those rooms.
At the last one we did i used my Gk/UL115 and was told i was too loud at the bar at the back of the room. and that was just my rig, no PA support there.
I really do find a 2x12 to be the best option for me as ill have loads of volume from my SA450/LMII and a bit more punch to cut through.
Fingers crossed.
I would think as long as you get the speakers hooked up correctly, you should have no more problems. Let us know how it comes out.
K
Hi all,
I'm finally ready to get my first 'real' cabinetI've decided to go Epifani. Schroeder is a close 2nd but I think for the styles i play (R&B/Jazz/Funk/Acoustic Rock.. relatively in that order) Epifani will be better. However I don't live anywehre that I can try either out which would be optimal but I'm sure anything would be better than my current setup.
Anyway, Right now Musicians friend has the UL-410 on sale for $999 at first i thought WOW that's what i was going to pay for the UL-310, but then i realized that the UL2's are out and they are probably trying to get rid fo the UL1's..
So my question is: which would be better UL1-410? UL2-310 Or is it worth the extra $150 for the UL2-410? I'm not soo concerned with volume, the head i have no is only 500watts so it won't push either cab (I plan to upgrade in the future) I'm more concerned with punchy tone and clarity.
Thanks in advance for any opinions.
-Jeff
In this case Jeff, I'd recommend the UL310. Like Ken mentioned and also IMHO, it makes little sense to have a single 8 ohm UL410 for a stand alone cab.
The UL310 is a great cab and you can always add on. The only down fall I had with it was doing loud outdoor gigs without good PA support and the low B would fart. That's one of the reasons I went with the UL410, 4 ohm, it can handle anything. IMO that is.
I just got my UL410 Series 2 and to keep it short and to the point, it's fantastic.
Nick's upgrade is a small one but noticeable, not like the change from the NYC's to the UL's change. Basically Nick added some low end and low mid's to it's voicing frequency range and keeping the mids, high mids and high end the same. What he did was smoothed out the mid to the low end tonal voicing. Those of you IMO that didn't like the UL410's mostly mid voicing will like the Series 2 and those that like the UL410 mid voicing should still like the Series 2. I had no problem dialing in more mids as needed for some of the songs we play and to help cut through the guitarists Mesa Boogie amps volume. 
It even sounded better with my WW's ULtra, you'd like that Ken.
I thought the series 2 cabs were just the result of Nick going for cheaper, more readily available speakers.
The B&C's cost more than the Eminence yet the series 2 cabs cost more than the series 1's i believe.
Or has the cab design changed as well?
The B&C's cost more than the Eminence yet the series 2 cabs cost more than the series 1's i believe.
Or has the cab design changed as well?
In this case Jeff, I'd recommend the UL310. Like Ken mentioned and also IMHO, it makes little sense to have a single 8 ohm UL410 for a stand alone cab.
The UL310 is a great cab and you can always add on. The only down fall I had with it was doing loud outdoor gigs without good PA support and the low B would fart. That's one of the reasons I went with the UL410, 4 ohm, it can handle anything. IMO that is.
I just got my UL410 Series 2 and to keep it short and to the point, it's fantastic.
GREAT post Gary, and good to see you on the board. I hope you are feeling OK.
That is EXACTLY the info I was looking for regarding the Series II 410UL. I think I'll take the plunge on one of these, since I like the Series I 410UL so much. Your description matches what the Bass Player review mentioned. Very cool.
Ken
The cheaper series you might be thinking of is the PS (Performance Series) cabs. Nick wasn't going for cheaper but as always, BETTER. Both the UL series 1 and 2 are the same cab dimensions and tweeter.
Hey, thanks Ken for the well wishes. I have my ups and downs now that I've been back on treatment. I'm used to it now just have to live with it and the good Lord makes sure I don't get more than I can handle.
I'm always checking out everyone's threads and posts, just don't contribute much these days, don't know enough or experience with some of what's going on. The discription is the same I heard from some friends that heard the Series 2 at NAMM. It's pretty much everyones thoughts.
Oh and when I used my 60's reissue jazz loaded with Fralin pu's and Sadowsky pre (no mid control, just bass and treble) with the Series 2 410 and my UL902C, whoowa, man did it pump out some funky thump and bumb.
No, i was told the Eminence drivers are cheaper than the B&C's and easier to get hold of, thats why Nick went with them. If the boxes are the same then i would have thought the Series 2 should be cheaper.
Could be wrong though.
can you tell us who told u the eminence drivers are "cheaper"?
B&C were screwing nick in terms of fulfilling orders and eminence were only too happy to pickup a brand like nick's. if anything, nick wasnt necessarily trying to cut costs, but rather just trying to find a stupid vendor who could properly fulfill orders on time and screw him over in wait times for parts.
as for being cheaper, i'm not so sure, only cause, it took a long time for nick to go thru the R&D w/ eminence in finding a speaker he liked. heck, the shop is littered with speakers of all shapes, sizes, dust covers, etc. also, considering the engineering that went into the speaker, they definitely dont seem like some off the shelf kinda thing.
besides, have you ever bought one from eminence's new line of guitar speakers? those prices are getting out of control.
can you tell us who told u the eminence drivers are "cheaper"?
B&C were screwing nick in terms of fulfilling orders and eminence were only too happy to pickup a brand like nick's. if anything, nick wasnt necessarily trying to cut costs, but rather just trying to find a stupid vendor who could properly fulfill orders on time and screw him over in wait times for parts.
as for being cheaper, i'm not so sure, only cause, it took a long time for nick to go thru the R&D w/ eminence in finding a speaker he liked. heck, the shop is littered with speakers of all shapes, sizes, dust covers, etc. also, considering the engineering that went into the speaker, they definitely dont seem like some off the shelf kinda thing.
besides, have you ever bought one from eminence's new line of guitar speakers? those prices are getting out of control.
Actually, the Eminence Neo's are a fraction of the cost of the previous B&C drivers. If you ever price out similar cabs with Eminence Neo's versus B&C drivers, this will become obvious. This is a fact.
Nick changed suppliers due to the B&C's not being able to keep up with demand ( as you point out), and also the dollar to Euro exchange rate being brutal. This change had NOTHING to do with 'improving the product', etc. I have no problem with Nick's profit margin being better at this point using the less expensive Eminence drivers. As one of his first customers, and one who has consistently used his product for over a decade, I have every hope that he makes a ton of money and stays in business
That being said, does that mean that the Eminence are inferior speakers?.... not necessarily. I was quite unimpressed with the new 310UL, but just ordered a new 410UL Series II. As with most revisions, some specific products improve, some regress.
But don't fool yourself by ignoring the situation. From all the info I have (and it's pretty good info from a variety of sources
), this was not a change driven by altruistic product improvement
Actually, the Eminence Neo's are a fraction of the cost of the previous B&C drivers. If you ever price out similar cabs with Eminence Neo's versus B&C drivers, this will become obvious. This is a fact.
Nick changed suppliers due to the B&C's not being able to keep up with demand ( as you point out), and also the dollar to Euro exchange rate being brutal. This change had NOTHING to do with 'improving the product', etc. I have no problem with Nick's profit margin being better at this point using the less expensive Eminence drivers. As one of his first customers, and one who has consistently used his product for over a decade, I have every hope that he makes a ton of money and stays in business
That being said, does that mean that the Eminence are inferior speakers?.... not necessarily. I was quite unimpressed with the new 310UL, but just ordered a new 410UL Series II. As with most revisions, some specific products improve, some regress.
But don't fool yourself by ignoring the situation. From all the info I have (and it's pretty good info from a variety of sources
+1 As long as the new drivers have similar specs (power handling and sensitivity) and are reliable the difference for the buyer is essentially tone. Whether it's an improvement or not is going to depend on personal taste. KJ, that series II 410 might go really well with your sd800 from the way you've described it. So with that amp, that makes the s2 better. From my experiences with a s2 210 I really prefer the upper mids of the s1 410 with my amp/bass/hands. I could be wrong but the mids I'm taking about, 2k or so, are so high up that I doubt whether the box the drivers are mounted in makes any difference, ie if the upper mids are less in a s2 210 & 310 they will be in the new 410 also.
Actually, the Eminence Neo's are a fraction of the cost of the previous B&C drivers. If you ever price out similar cabs with Eminence Neo's versus B&C drivers, this will become obvious. This is a fact.
Nick changed suppliers due to the B&C's not being able to keep up with demand ( as you point out), and also the dollar to Euro exchange rate being brutal. This change had NOTHING to do with 'improving the product', etc. I have no problem with Nick's profit margin being better at this point using the less expensive Eminence drivers. As one of his first customers, and one who has consistently used his product for over a decade, I have every hope that he makes a ton of money and stays in business
That being said, does that mean that the Eminence are inferior speakers?.... not necessarily. I was quite unimpressed with the new 310UL, but just ordered a new 410UL Series II. As with most revisions, some specific products improve, some regress.
But don't fool yourself by ignoring the situation. From all the info I have (and it's pretty good info from a variety of sources
first off, ken, chill out.
nobody's fooling themselves or ignoring the situation. again, i've spoken with nick, and sure, the eminence arent as expensive as the B&C's, but of course, they arent, cause 1.) B&C are known for their high end stereo crap and 2.) heck, nick was importing those jones straight from the freakin' EU/italy.
but i was trying to point out that the price difference btwn the two speakers isnt quite that wide. i mean, nick isnt suddenly saving millions of bucks with cheapie "$1 a piece" eminence speakers. sure, the margin is that much larger, but again, its not like suddenly, his profit margins exploded 500%.
yikes
+1... I LOVE my current 410UL.... I like it so much that I thought I'd try the new model also
... and the voicing of the SD800, as you point out, is the thing that got me interested in trying one out.
A couple general S1 vs S2 points based on commentary so far (excluding the debates on "why" re: the S2... I'm not touching that one. )
I currently own both an S1 and an S2 UL310. I've spent a "reasonable" amount of time listening to S1 and S2 UL410's (but can't touch Ken's experience specifically with the S1 UL410... especially in a gig situation).
Based on my observations of the B&C's vs the Eminence in subjective testing at home (no spectrum analyzers used), the diffs seem to be pretty quantifiable. The B&C's have a fairly strong mid peak at about 380Hz (I spent some time buzzing this one out with a parametric EQ with the S1 and S2 side by side). They also seem to roll off a little sooner on the low and high end.
What this means is, without altering EQ on the amp, the B&C cabs will "hit you in the chest" more, project a bit better, and provide higher SPL's at a given input power level. It also means they won't sound as "pretty" at home.
However, don't take that to mean the S2's are crap. They aren't. In my experiences, the S2's take EQ better. That makes them more versatile. If I want that same mid bump, it's actually pretty easy to dial it in at the head.
I'd generally say the overall diffs between the S1's and the S2's is, again, before amp EQ is used, the S2's are a bit more even tempered and the S1's are more mid growly.
The speaker diffs are also going to affect the different cabs differently as well. For example, what I've heard about the S2 UL210 is, the change really was for the worse for output, anyway, and when you're talking about a 210, you're already output challenged, so that's not good.
On the 310, I think it's to the point where some amp EQ and you can pretty much have anything you want, and in a surprisingly more portable package than the 410. It's modestly smaller and lighter, but there's a boundary crossed there that makes a BIG difference when it comes to carrying it around and getting it in and out of a vehicle. One note specific to the 310 regarding "adding on"... these are ODDBALL impedance cabs due to the triple 16 ohm parallel design, so you can NOT just add a second cab unless your head supports sub-4 ohm loads. These cabs are designed fairly specifically to be used as single-cab solutions for small to medium gigs. This is currently a point of consternation with me, because I'd love to drive a pair of these with my TFB or Markbass heads, but I can't. I absolutely LOVE the portability, tone, and output of these cabs, but the oddball impedances really is a significant restriction... at least for me.
On the 410, I think the S2 is a big improvement, and I know I'll get argument on this. I can appreciate the cutting capabilities of the S1, but every time I heard that cab I found it to be SO heavy in those mids I really had a problem with it and started fighting it with EQ right away (a big red flag to me when eval'ing gear). I'll personally never be interested in an S1 410. However, the S2 410 is giving me MAJOR GAS even tho it'd be really rough for me personally to transport. I heard a pair of those at NAMM, and you talk about a "heavy mix", well, you got one on the floor at NAMM... trust me. NO PROBLEM. I dreamed about that rig.
FWIW, IME, YMMV, IMHO, blah blah blah... I'm going to bed... it's WAY too late...
)I currently own both an S1 and an S2 UL310. I've spent a "reasonable" amount of time listening to S1 and S2 UL410's (but can't touch Ken's experience specifically with the S1 UL410... especially in a gig situation).
Based on my observations of the B&C's vs the Eminence in subjective testing at home (no spectrum analyzers used), the diffs seem to be pretty quantifiable. The B&C's have a fairly strong mid peak at about 380Hz (I spent some time buzzing this one out with a parametric EQ with the S1 and S2 side by side). They also seem to roll off a little sooner on the low and high end.
What this means is, without altering EQ on the amp, the B&C cabs will "hit you in the chest" more, project a bit better, and provide higher SPL's at a given input power level. It also means they won't sound as "pretty" at home.
However, don't take that to mean the S2's are crap. They aren't. In my experiences, the S2's take EQ better. That makes them more versatile. If I want that same mid bump, it's actually pretty easy to dial it in at the head.
I'd generally say the overall diffs between the S1's and the S2's is, again, before amp EQ is used, the S2's are a bit more even tempered and the S1's are more mid growly.
The speaker diffs are also going to affect the different cabs differently as well. For example, what I've heard about the S2 UL210 is, the change really was for the worse for output, anyway, and when you're talking about a 210, you're already output challenged, so that's not good.
On the 310, I think it's to the point where some amp EQ and you can pretty much have anything you want, and in a surprisingly more portable package than the 410. It's modestly smaller and lighter, but there's a boundary crossed there that makes a BIG difference when it comes to carrying it around and getting it in and out of a vehicle. One note specific to the 310 regarding "adding on"... these are ODDBALL impedance cabs due to the triple 16 ohm parallel design, so you can NOT just add a second cab unless your head supports sub-4 ohm loads. These cabs are designed fairly specifically to be used as single-cab solutions for small to medium gigs. This is currently a point of consternation with me, because I'd love to drive a pair of these with my TFB or Markbass heads, but I can't. I absolutely LOVE the portability, tone, and output of these cabs, but the oddball impedances really is a significant restriction... at least for me.
On the 410, I think the S2 is a big improvement, and I know I'll get argument on this. I can appreciate the cutting capabilities of the S1, but every time I heard that cab I found it to be SO heavy in those mids I really had a problem with it and started fighting it with EQ right away (a big red flag to me when eval'ing gear). I'll personally never be interested in an S1 410. However, the S2 410 is giving me MAJOR GAS even tho it'd be really rough for me personally to transport. I heard a pair of those at NAMM, and you talk about a "heavy mix", well, you got one on the floor at NAMM... trust me. NO PROBLEM. I dreamed about that rig.
FWIW, IME, YMMV, IMHO, blah blah blah... I'm going to bed... it's WAY too late...
Great post Vic! You are up late, and I'm up early!
The only thing that I'll add to the above is that, if you have a standard car, the 310UL is much easier to cram into the backseat than the 410UL (which won't even fit in most back seats). However, since the 410UL is only 10 pounds heavier and not that much bigger than the 310UL, if you have a small SUV (I use a Honda CRV to haul my gear), I actually find the 410UL easier to schlep around since it sits so high on the wheels... just put your head on top and wheel it in... and no trouble lifting it by yourself (up stairs, onto stages, etc.).
However, per the above, if you are stuck using a standard car to haul your gear, if you have very narrow stairs and have to constantly haul your cabs up and down from a basement, and if you don't need huge volume, the 310UL is a dream!
Edit: Also, per EL Kabong's post... the mid presence of the original 410UL is at a higher frequency than the 310UL... maybe 1K or so with a pretty substantial Q (maybe 700 to 2K all together).... the area where the 'grind and grit' lives! However, as has been discussed previously, that can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on your tone preference.
The only thing that I'll add to the above is that, if you have a standard car, the 310UL is much easier to cram into the backseat than the 410UL (which won't even fit in most back seats). However, since the 410UL is only 10 pounds heavier and not that much bigger than the 310UL, if you have a small SUV (I use a Honda CRV to haul my gear), I actually find the 410UL easier to schlep around since it sits so high on the wheels... just put your head on top and wheel it in... and no trouble lifting it by yourself (up stairs, onto stages, etc.).
However, per the above, if you are stuck using a standard car to haul your gear, if you have very narrow stairs and have to constantly haul your cabs up and down from a basement, and if you don't need huge volume, the 310UL is a dream!
Edit: Also, per EL Kabong's post... the mid presence of the original 410UL is at a higher frequency than the 310UL... maybe 1K or so with a pretty substantial Q (maybe 700 to 2K all together).... the area where the 'grind and grit' lives! However, as has been discussed previously, that can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on your tone preference.
I wasnt implying that Nick was making a lot more money by posting what i did, just that i couldn't see why the Series 2 cabs cost more considering the cabs are the same. Its not like there was any R&D done to them to improve the sound with the new drivers AFAIK.
I would guess that Nick wanted cheaper drivers that were just as good and sounded close to the ones he was already using as i assume, the Cabs are tuned for the B&C drivers.
I have now go two B&C's in my UL212 (still have to solder the wires so they dont come loose) but to my ears i like the sound i have now better than when i got the cab with the Eminence drivers in it. Its a bit heavier but thats ok.
IMHO of course
I can get my 410UL in my Mazda 3i wagon easily. Heck I could get my preveious NV215 in it but it was a stuggle. So... get a 410UL and a Mazda
