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EQing the band

CaptainTuna

CaptainTuna

May 13, 2011
132
1
#1
Hey everyone,

I've been searching on the internet about this topic since a few weeks ago and most of times I don't come up with any cool example I can study or analyze.

First, every "How to EQ your bass" articles tell you that boosting some bass will help you in this, boosting your mids will help you in that, and boosting some highs will help you in this/that, and after reading the article you feel like boosting everything....not really helpful.
Secondly, I've read some other "EQ your band" articles and they only suggest boosting bass for bass guitars and highs for everything else, but they usually don't give any other reccomendation.

Now... I understand that, probably, the aim of all these articles is something like: go out there and try it! But, for some reasons this isn't always possible for me. First of all, I only rehearse once a week, and every time I get on the eq people kind of bash me: guitarists want their LOWs to be there and keyboardists want to play on my same octave.

What I'm asking is: is there a site or something else which provides EQing examples for the whole band that I can study at home and try out at rehearsals so that I know what I'm doing without just messing aroung with the EQ trial-and-error style (so my band-mates won't bash me for it)?

OR : how do you do it? Any tips?
 
#2
At rehearsals, people use their amplifiers to get the sound they like. I don't think you should EQ your guitarist same as you won't expect your guitarist to EQ you.

In most cases, this basically determines the way a band sounds - from here on there's room only for some adjustments to reach a better overall mix.

As you mentioned yourself, articles on the subject aim to send you out there to try it but if your band don't want you to, you're not going to force them. That's the difference between most bands and the really good bands - They make the song sound good, not just their own instrument.
 
#3
Thanks for the answer BullHorn!

I see one problem in what you said though: we're not pros. We all do not know much about mixing ourselves the proper way, and it looks like I'm the only one who actually cares and try to achieve a better mix. The guitarist/keyboardist do sound good with their EQ settings on their own but, in my opinion, do not act as if they we're in a band.

Example: Last time we played the guitarist had his lows boosted, and canceled me out a little bit.
Example 2: keyboardist plays on my octave, I can't convince her to move out of the way or at least exchange freqs with me (I play higher, she plays lower).

So I think I'll have to sort that out myself a bit. I was thinking about recording each track separately and EQing/mixing them at home with some audio/music software until I find the right balance and EQ setting and then showing it to them (maybe that could convince them to change something in their EQs...don't know...).
 
#4
CaptainTuna said:
Example: Last time we played the guitarist had his lows boosted, and canceled me out a little bit.
Example 2: keyboardist plays on my octave, I can't convince her to move out of the way or at least exchange freqs with me (I play higher, she plays lower).

So I think I'll have to sort that out myself a bit. I was thinking about recording each track separately and EQing/mixing them at home with some audio/music software until I find the right balance and EQ setting and then showing it to them (maybe that could convince them to change something in their EQs...don't know...).
Click to expand...

I suffered from the same issue. The rhythm guitarist in my band used some weird techy amplifier which he claimed only sounded good when he had enough bass to make his guitar sound as bassy as a bass guitar. But I didn't care, I just cut the Bass on my amplifier and let him hog my sonic space. This obviously made the entire mix sound terrible and eventually, he stopped bringing that amplifier and went back to using the studio's Fender combo.

I'm not sure how you would be able to seperately record the drums in a live setting unless the drummer was isolated but recording all other instruments in seperate tracks is very easy with modern gear (Just send the guitar, bass, keyboards and vocal signals to a mixer, connected to a laptop with something like Cubase or Ableton).
 
#5
BullHorn said:
I suffered from the same issue. The rhythm guitarist in my band used some weird techy amplifier which he claimed only sounded good when he had enough bass to make his guitar sound as bassy as a bass guitar. But I didn't care, I just cut the Bass on my amplifier and let him hog my sonic space. This obviously made the entire mix sound terrible and eventually, he stopped bringing that amplifier and went back to using the studio's Fender combo.

I'm not sure how you would be able to seperately record the drums in a live setting unless the drummer was isolated but recording all other instruments in seperate tracks is very easy with modern gear (Just send the guitar, bass, keyboards and vocal signals to a mixer, connected to a laptop with something like Cubase or Ableton).
Click to expand...

Guitarists tend to use too much bass, as it sounds good alone...
But in a band context... best to cut their low end A LOT. And often boost their mids, and if playing rock, usually lower their gain.
Oh... most will hate you!!!
But if you record the results, you may get even them to see that their guitar sounds clearer, fatter and bigger... and fits better in The band mix.
 
#6
I must try, sooner or later. What do you guys think about keyboards and bass?
I used to be a "wow, mids!!" guy, and I must admit that even now it sounds great...on it's own. I recently found out though, that boosting lows and highs works much better in the band. (for me at least, considering keyboards and guitar are in the mix as well)

But... won't the guitarist hate me for boosting highs (same problem, but reversed) ? Thing is that if I leave highs low, I lose a lot of definition while playing with them.

As for the keyboard...should I try setting it like the guitar? It usually plays on a mid-high range similar to the guitar's. (It also plays on my octave, but that's another story :( )
 
#7
mcnach said:
Guitarists tend to use too much bass, as it sounds good alone...
But in a band context... best to cut their low end A LOT. And often boost their mids, and if playing rock, usually lower their gain.
Oh... most will hate you!!!
But if you record the results, you may get even them to see that their guitar sounds clearer, fatter and bigger... and fits better in The band mix.
Click to expand...

+1 to this.

To quickly /thread, here is an example of what the isolated tracks of guitar and bass sound in one of the most famous songs of all time, Guns & Roses' Welcome To The Jungle:

Guitar:

The guitars sound good while staying the **** out of the bass' territory.
 
#8
CaptainTuna said:
I must try, sooner or later. What do you guys think about keyboards and bass?
I used to be a "wow, mids!!" guy, and I must admit that even now it sounds great...on it's own. I recently found out though, that boosting lows and highs works much better in the band.

But... won't the guitarist hate me for boosting highs (same problem, but reversed) ? Thing is that if I leave highs low, I lose a lot of definition while playing with them.

As for the keyboard...should I try setting it like the guitar? It usually plays on a mid-high range similar to the guitar's. (It also plays on my octave, but that's another story :( )
Click to expand...

I feel like most people have found the complete opposite - that is, a mid scoop sounds good on its own but lousy in a band. Not mid scooping will also help you retain that "definition" you lose without the highs.
 
#9
Wait, I'm not scooping mids, just giving them no boost and no cut (+0dB). I have to admit I haven't tried EQing a lot while in the band for reasons stated above though, probably mids work better than highs for definition?
 
#10
CaptainTuna said:
Wait, I'm not scooping mids, just giving them no boost and no cut (+0dB). I have to admit I haven't tried EQing a lot while in the band for reasons stated above though, probably mids work better than highs for definition?
Click to expand...

My understanding is that if you boost lows and highs, your mids will be "scooped", even if you leave them flat. It's a relative thing.
 
#11
obsidianbass said:
My understanding is that if you boost lows and highs, your mids will be "scooped", even if you leave them flat. It's a relative thing.
Click to expand...

Well, yeah, guess you're right. I just meant that I'm not scooping them any further than -0dB :) My bad!
Still, not sure, probably should forget boosting highs and go for mids? Guess I have to try...still, got any experience on this choice?
 
#12
tekdiver500ft said:
I've found a really usable starting EQ for bass guitar to be bass @ 11 o'clock, 600 Hz mids @ 2 o'clock, treble flat. This gives a nice round sound, good definition, some air and sparkle. Start there, and adjust to find your sound. YMMV
Click to expand...

This means nothing because each bass sounds differently, each amplifier is voiced differently at 'flat' settings and the EQ knobs are centered differently and each cabinet has a different sound and each band has different guitarists with different fingers and different picks and different amps ----------- you see where I'm going with this.

A boost to 600hz can cause trouble to some vocalists, many bassists like to slightly cut around 500hz in this regard.
 
#13
tekdiver500ft said:
Whatever you say. I'm sure you know more than I...

Deliberate rudeness really isn't necessary, nor is it helpful. "Means nothing..." Really? I'm pretty sure it means exactly what I said it means. That's why I said "starting point." It's also why I said "YMMV." With every amp and cab I've used (dozens of each), this gives a slightly mid-forward sound, keeps the bass manageable, generally has a nice, clean sound that is usable in a wide variety of situations and sits well in a mix. You adjust from there to find the sound that fits your style and your band.

Perhaps you should read the whole post before telling people they mean nothing.
Click to expand...

Maybe cut down your coffee intake?

I don't think where he was being rude there. And I think he is right, saying you turn knob X to 2 o'clock means exactly nothing, unless you guys are talking about the very same exact amp, since the eq and voicing of each amp is different. Sometimes extremely different.
I'm not sure what's so hurtful for you about that... but I don't see that as being rude. At all.

Let's calm down and continue talking sense. There has been some good stuff in this thread, including some from you, let's not spoil it now for the OP.
 
#14
Speaking very basically, what I do is ensure the bass is "on top" of the kick drum - this usually means cutting some bass frequencies. Midrange is then your friend, you will find your punch and clarity there. A bit of treble for sparkle is cool, but go easy. Guitars then should have their bass cut a fair amount (whether or not they like it). Everyone will then have their own sonic space and it should generally sound good.

As has been said before, YMMV. Your particular gear and playing style means you will simply have to experiment a bit. But as a general rule, I find what I mentioned above to be good advice. Cut those lows back, it really cleans up the overall sound. (and for context, I play in a heavy metal band)
 
#15
obsidianbass said:
Speaking very basically, what I do is ensure the bass is "on top" of the kick drum - this usually means cutting some bass frequencies. Midrange is then your friend, you will find your punch and clarity there.
Click to expand...

Makes sense, so you'd boost midrange before highs. I don't get that staying on top of the kick drum by cutting bass though, I always thought you had to increase bass for that.
 
#16
CaptainTuna said:
Thanks for the answer BullHorn!

I see one problem in what you said though: we're not pros. We all do not know much about mixing ourselves the proper way, and it looks like I'm the only one who actually cares and try to achieve a better mix. The guitarist/keyboardist do sound good with their EQ settings on their own but, in my opinion, do not act as if they we're in a band.
Click to expand...

There's alot that can be pulled from this one paragraph. Mixing live sound is a very misunderstood and severely under appreciated art. It takes a lifetime to learn. You're not going to convince your band members on how to mix your live sound unless you can get them out of their own band situation and really start analyzing other bands' sounds.

My best suggestion is to get everyone to help out or volunteer at the next festival or something where a truely professional sound company is running things... NOT a guy who is normally a guitarist in a band that happens to have a bunch of equipment, or has a regular day job as a civil engineer. I mean a company where all the guys running sound are certified in some manner and/or are union members. Watch them go through a frequency sweep, toss in the same CD that they use at every gig to test the sound, etc. and how they usually notch the bass guitar at about 60-80hz to make sonic space for the kick, cut the lows on the guitars, etc.

Second, sit in on a mixing session in a pro-level recording studio. They usually do the same, but it can really make people think about what specific frequencies need cutting or boosting. It'll also get the guitarists to maybe realize that they're usually turned up about twice as loud as they need to be and that everyone's volume should be sitting below the vocalist's volume.

Third, somehow get everybody to turn down. The louder a band's onstage volume gets is directly proportional to how many sound problems they have, especially in rooms or situations that aren't ideally set up for live bands or sound. Bad sound usually starts with the guitarists turned up too loud, but usually also involves everyone in the band except the vocalist as they try to balance out with the guitarists. Playing with a drummer who's known to be a loud drummer who beats the daylights out of his drums is asking for problems. A guitarist who shows up with a Marshall full stack is begging for problems, etc.

A good live sound has so many factors going into it. There's a few good books out there, but I can't remember any of them off hand. There's probably some good Youtube videos, too, but I haven't searched for them.
 
#17
Thanks for the answers so far, everyone, your feedback si really appreciated!

In response to Ubersheist:

I'm not sure I'll be able to really get in a mixing studio or at a venue with pros. I've been at a few venues but we haven't got much locally, and a totally non-pro usually sits at the mixing desk. Nonetheless I think that searching for some isolated tracks on the internet could help (as BullHorn also suggested) as those tracks were made in a mixing session somehow. Won't be as beneficial, but I might still get something out of it and see if I can convince my fellow band mates.

As for the volume, drummer and small room work against us. But still, fortunately, we're all moderate in that sense and never crank our volumes too high, so that shouldn't be the deal to get sorted.

A book could be indeed a great idea, why haven't I thought of that before? Might give amazon a shot and see what I can find.
 
#19
how they usually notch the bass guitar at about 60-80hz to make sonic space for the kick, cut the lows on the guitars, etc.

This is what I'm talking about. In order to make the bass play nice with the kick, you should cut some low frequencies on the bass. Don't go nuts, but your lowest frequencies in the band should be the kick. (Unless you guys are going for something avant garde) Again generally speaking, midrange is where the bass best resides, then guitars above that.

Ubersheist is totally right about the lifetime to learn thing. Your best bet is to experiment and listen as much as possible to other bands and how they mix their sound live. If you like it, try to cop it. If not, try to identify what it is about the mix you don't like (ie. too muddy, too thin, etc) and try to avoid that. You can always learn something from the sound guy, even if he sucks - learn what not to do!

(that first line is a quote, not sure why it didn't use a quote box...oh well.)
 

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